Just ignore them.

...ignore who? The letter writers or the executioners...?

Hold off the nukes, we're about to turn a corner on June 30. Patience. --s

Scott,

I fear that corner we'll be turning might turn out to be into a very dark alley. Civilization simply cannot allow these monstrosities to continue. We are doomed if they do.

What's more telling is that you aren't going to see any street protests over here either. You're correct, there are dark days indeed ahead. The transfer of 'power' in Iraq isn't going to end this.

Enola Gay Not Needed!

We have subs that can do the same job with less risk. Put one in the Red Sea (Persian Gulf is pretty shallow). 100 megatons that is what I'm talking about! Why kill 30,000 when you can kill 300,000? Empty the missile tubes and call it Miller Time!

Val,

I don't want to get into a big pissing match, but did you really think that by us invading Iraq, any of this would change?

The region is, in general, uncivilized. We cannot impose democracy on a place that is fundamentally opposed to personal freedom.

We need to view the middle east as a cage full of vipers. Occasionally, one will get out and bite us, but by improving our defenses, we can help to keep most of them out.

Oh, and if we find the cage they came from, we need to blow it the hell away, so none will ever "escape" again.

That's a pretty damn big cage Other Mike.

They want barabrism? Fine. Lets give it to them.

Let's not. Let's give them civilization: rule of law, freedom, dignity, and human rights. I submit that for every murdering barbarian there are 10,000 people that would simply like to keep their children and livestock alive. This isn't a schoolyard fistfight - it calls for clearer thinking than what's being presented in this post.

GFranklin,

Give them civilization? Give them? You dont give civilization. You are either civilized or you're not.

Val, I disagree. Baghdad was the birthplace of the concept of zero, which was formulated by a conference of calendarists, astrologers, and mathematicians drawn to the city from regions as far away as India and Israel. Things change. And if we're not trying to give them civilization, or rather, give it back to them, then I don't know what the invasion is for.

That's a pretty frightening attitude to have. Most people over there are just normal people. It's like saying every student at Columbine High is a gun toting maniac. It wouldn't have made sense to bomb the school because 1% of the population was dangerous now, would it?

People aren't protesting in the Middle East because if they were caught by some of those crazy fuckers they'd get their head chopped off, too. It's not like the police in SA are anything like American police. You can get away with murder there quite easily.

It seems a lot of people in this blog have fairly Orientalist ideas. Hateful comments such as these are just counterproductive. You need to realize that not only are most people over there normal, but a lot of the things that are happening lately is because some psychos are pissed off about our continued violence over there. Not to condone what has happened, but that is the reason. Don't believe me if you don't want to, but I have a lot of first hand experience over there. Preaching hate like this only makes things worse and I don't understand why so many people do it. What if your entire family happened to live over there? I worked in Nigeria for years, which is right in the thick of these maniacs. I never met any of them, but the one thing I can tell you is that for the most part they are normal people that have been born into this shit.

I'm as white as they get- blonde hair and blue eyes. Even worse: I was working on a development project over there for years. I walked around with a suit and tie for 7 years and I never had my head chopped off. I was pretty symbolic of everything that is "western" over there, and everyone treated me with respect. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are people that would have gladly kidnapped me, but believe it or not they are a rarity--rare enough that I didn't come across them. They are unfortunate enough to be trapped over there, don't make their lives worse by ranting about wanting them all dead. They are people just like the rest of us. It is not a viable option to dispose of them all just because you are a little worried about some of them. It's not like they live in a utopia over there or something.

Franklin,

I know Baghdad is called the cradle of civilization, yet, somehow, regardless of their early achievements in the subjects you state, it is a place now very very far from civilized, only because the civilized people of the area are allowing it to be so. We can help them all they want, but they have to help themselves too.

Justin,

You know this post was written in anger. And I am certain that not every person in the Middle East is an evil murderous terrorist. Yet the reality is that those that are terrorists dont abide by peace talks and treaties and pacts and concessions. They only know murder and death. They only understand force. And that's the only thing thats going to make them go away.

Justin,

You keep using the word "normal" to describe people who allow psychopaths to push them around. Every single person is responsible for his or her behavior. You are either a stand-up person, which might mean your death, or you're a coward, in which case they won't come for you until later.

And if you worked in Nigeria anytime in the last twenty years, and managed to la-de-dah your way through a country steadily descending into hell, then all I can say is, thanks for your help.

JdB

OK. I just deleted a couple of comments as they were getting a bit out of hand.

Let's try to leave genitalia and such out of the conversation please.

Justin,

First, please do not come to my blog and insult commentors using profanity such as "suck my c*ck." Thats unacceptable regardless of the fact that you may have taken some offense at Jerome's remark. He did not resort to name calling while offering his opinion. I have deleted the comments that were posted and have not banned you, but please, dude, no more of the c*cksucking shit. Jerome happens to be a very good friend of mine and I will not allow this kind of shit. If you cant comport yourself like a civilized person then go somewhere else.

First off, when some dude insults my life work I take offense. I have worked hard to find an actual solution for the problem rather than insulting those who do to limited success.
I also felt it was rather ignorant to expect people from that culture to have organized protest. That's like expecting Cubans to take to the streets and protest Castro. We can protest here, but you can't go to santiago and you sure as hell can't do it in the middle east.
I apologize for the profanity. Next time he feels the need to insult me I will tell him off in his own blog if you prefer. If you don't want me to post in your blog then that's fine. I thought I made some constructive comments until a certain cretin decided to insult me, not to mention make comments that were 10X more offensive than the ones I made.

Justin,

Sorry man. But I hardly think Jerome's comments merited the grotesque and ill-manered response you made. There is no profanity in his comment, he merely stated his opinion. You want to negate it? Fine, then negate it with facts and data. But "suck my c*ck" is not reasonable discourse. Not here, not anywhere.

Jerome took you to task for your previous statement and you lost it.

You and I dont see eye to eye on most things but we have at least been able to have a civil debate. But I assure you, had it been me that that profanity was addressed to, I would have banned you without even a second thought.

Justin:

I don't think Val will begrudge me a certain amount of bandwidth.

I have not seen the word "woman" in your comments, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tell, as the gamblers say.

You have defended a culture and religion which encourages and defends clitoridectomy, honor killing, dhimmitude, human slavery, decapitation and dismemberment.

You have defended a culture which imprisons people for possessing books, for saying out loud that the revolution is a failure.

And you dare to call me a cretin. Your life's work is ashes if this is the person it made of you.

Jerome du Bois, 54, born and raised in the United States of America.

hey man, in my ideal world there would be no religion at all. I wasn't saying that Islam is a great religion or anything. Yes - they are behind the times. The Q'ran has been twisted around to justify cutting heads off. The fact is most muslims aren't like this. Genital mutilation is not common practice among muslims. And yes-it is a sexist religion. I don't think that justifies blowing the shit out of all of them though, or wanting them all to burn in hell. If there is a hell those extremists will all end up there, but the average muslim does not deserve to burn because they share a religion. Islam as it is practiced by 99% of muslims is harmless. It is the radicals that ruin it for everyone. there are extremists in every belief system though pal.

Val,

As far as Jerome having taken me to task on my statement, I hardly see that. Muslims cannot safely protest in the middle east. Period.

As far as 'taking me to task' about my life's work, all I can say is that I am quite sure I accomplished more by going over there than he has by sitting at his computer insulting my efforts. And I'm 18 years younger than he is.

Justin,

In Cuban we have a saying..

El diablo sabe mas por viejo que por diablo.

Roughly, it means "the devil knows more because he's old than because he's the devil."

Interesting take. And an interesting saying. However, in this sort of case not quite accurate. By that logic every old redneck in my country is smarter than I am. Jerome could be 50 years older than I am but if he doesn't have anything near the experience I have with the subject at hand, this isn't applicable. Not that I blame you for defending your friend. I know when I am right. Just thought I'd help some people see the obvious.

I dont mean to beat a dead horse but...

I dont think you are 100% correct Justin. You stated that Muslims cant protest for fear of their lives. Then you stated that 99% of muslims are peaceful, and that only the one percent is the exremists muslims.

The math doesnt make sense to me then. Am I to believe that that 99% percent allows themselves and their religion to be controlled by a measely one percent? If this is so, then Jerome and I are right. The 99% ring it upoon themselves for the lack of courage and conviction to do what is right.

I can certainly say that these beheadings make me want to see drastic actions taken, but I am fairly certain that wouldn't really change anything. I'm actually at a loss over what to do about these folks, and am glad that I don't have to make that call. My gut feeling is that we're going to have to come to the realization that these people are going to do this over and over because they can. They can kidnap someone and murder them before anyone could ever find them and stop them. (It is kind of like the DC snipers. If they'd had a brain between them they never would have been caught.)

One thing that is very disappointing, though, is the lack of outrage - even in the US. We should be severly pissed off over this.

noone knows the actual stats on the matter Val. If you want a better breakdown, from what I know about the case (which is a fair bit), I will give it to you:

about 80% would rise up if they thought there was any chance of success.

About 15% think, in one way or another we "deserve" it.

about 5% (to be generous) are extremists.

The problem is that all of the power-the weapons, the technology, the organization-is controlled by the small portion of extremists. They hold the power. The police will do nothing, the army will do nothing. It is corrupt beyond belief. When I was in Saudi Arabia I was riding in a car with my friend and we got in an accident. We were thrown in jail for 3 days. I spent $3000 just to get out. There are no rules over there. Here to have a protest against something we have a problem with is playing by the rules. Over there it is punishable by death.

The fact still remains that most people just want to be normal. Live normal lives. They've lived their entire lives in one form of war or another and it is unreasonable to expect them to want to start another.

So, in answer to your question:yes, most of the population is pushed around by a small few. But the small few in control have startling amounts of power.

I live in the states, and I obviously would rather kill a terrorist before he chops my head off. But these things must be carefully executed. If each side is ruled by hate then each will lose. There are terrorists living in our country right now. They are everywhere. I am not saying they are reasonable people, my point is that they are unreasonable, which is why you need to be careful.

a sidenote in response to JED's comment: Most people are at a loss. The middle east situation is completely out of hand. It can be fixed but there is no fast solution, and it is going to cost a shitload of money.

I believe in protest, but muslims protesting is not the way things will be fixed.

Well, then, given this information, could it not be argued that the muslim state is the problem?

If someone is knifing you to death in my presence and I do not do anything about it, doesnt that make me an accomplice?

I think it is fairly obvious that the muslim states are the problem. I have always believed that on the whole religion causes more harm than good. As far as religion goes, I support people that want to live as muslims, not people that want to live as extremists.

All I can do is stress the distribution of power. If we were in Saudi Arabia and someone was getting knifed I wouldn't do anything. Not because I am a coward, but because I would either end up getting knifed myself or the murderer and myself would both get arrested. The law doesn't work over there. Everything is corrupt. That's why it is so hard to develop the middle east. Just getting a drivers license would require you to pay off half a dozen people.

We are lucky to live in a just society. If I see someone getting knifed on my way home tonight I will help them. But that's because my country is ruled differently.

Intervention is necessary-I agree. But in the past intervention has always been partly to help the people over there, but mostly to help ourselves. I am not a crazy, Chomsky-reading leftist, but that is how it has worked. It is somewhat understandable, but it is not the answer anymore. Ideally, they would get both development AID, and while they were developing we could work to fuck up those crazy extremists.

Perhaps the answer, then, is to help make sure that the 80% that you mentioned earlier ends up having the ability to bring punishment on these people themselves. However, that is going to necessitate that they are willing to prosecute and punish these wackos. There can't be any sympathy for them in that 80% crowd. I'm afraid that it will also mean that there are going to be quite a few more heads sawed off before the people realize that there is strength in numbers.

there is strength in numbers, but there is also strentgh in weapons, organization, etc. I think it's safe to say that if a war broke out between that 80% and the 5% of extremists, the extremists would win. I just don't expect normal people to sacrafice their lives for ours. If that was a viable solution it would have happened a long time ago. If that 80% had any power whatsoever the world would be a different place altogether. Trust me, I have lived as one of those in the 80% bracket. It is a pretty hopeless feeling.

I guess that is my point. Make sure they have the weapons and organization that they need. Isn't that part of the reason that we are there?

I cant believe that if a war between the 80% and the %5 broke out, the 5% would win. Its unfathomable and statistically improbable.

But, lets just agree to disagree agreeably. right now, its 94 degrees out, incredibly sunny and I can see my pool beckoning through the office window.

Im gonna wash that anger right outta my hair.

yes, it is part of the reason. Unfortunately the motives are questionable. I am not going to argue about the motives behind this war. Personally I think that although we may be there for our own sake, we are in a sense doing good for the people there as well. So in a sense, everyone wins.

The problem arises when, as happened with the last war, we won, then we left. The aftermath of a war is the hardest part. I think if a responsible government is installed that is interested in infrastructure, it will help a lot. Iraq is a small portion of the middle east though. People need to realize this. It is far to common for people to lose interest in the positive outcomes that can come from these wars. That is the problem in Afghanistan right now. Instead of helping rebuild, we just bombed it and left. rebuilding is the hardest and most expensive part, but is also the most important. Otherwise you are just setting the stage for things to happen all over again.

sounds good... but it's raining here:(

5% would win
Val

You know one of my personnel fascinations with the war in Iraq is what I see as a parallel with Cuba.
Let's say that the marines where landing tomorrow. I think that we will see a repeat of what is going on right now in Iraq. And how Iraq turns out will tell us something about what we can expect from Cuban liberation.
So with all that in mind does anyone think that the nuke option is still open?
Would you nuke Havana?

Madtom

'nuking' anyone is not a viable option. If you nuked Havana, you'd essentially be giving yourself cancer if you live in Miami. Cuba isn't really parallel with Iraq-at least I don't think so. I would think the Cuban people in general would be a lot more willing to rise up against Castro than Muslims would against fundamentalists. But that's just a personal opinion.

Now that this conversation has gotten WAY off the topic from the original post, I'll shut up.

Ignore both.

If these people don't want civilisation then they can stick with what they have. Up go the drawbridges and we let them kill each other until they themselves ask for help. If they cause us problems we should treat them with all necessary force. If those on the left object then we simply point out that when we get involved they rant, when we don't they rant, so they should make up their minds or rock up over there and see how long they survive telling people what to do 24/7.

In the civilised areas (like Kurdish Iraq) though we should get involved.

Cuba isn't really parallel with Iraq-at least I don't think so
justin

Both societies have lived for a generation under communism, both have been schooled in anti-American propaganda ,both have learned to be suspicious or authority, both live in a state with built in corruption. Both just don't know any better.

Madtom