I'm pulled both ways on the illegal immigration issue. My own experience - signing papers to get my godfather Silvester in on the amnesty of the eighties, then watching all three of his sons grow up to wear the uniforms of American armed services and go to Iraq in the current war - leave me with no particular ground to stand on as an immigration hawk. Even more than that, Silvester came to America dirt-poor and now he and his sons all own houses; he's done better by himself and his kids than a great many of us who affect to having ancestors come in on the Mayflower. Indeed, the guy should shame a lot of us. I see him as proven the validity of the American dream even though technically he's a resident alien Mexican national.

I accept the right of a sovereign nation to open or close its borders as it sees fit, even to the point of refusing peole in ways that seem cruel or arbitrary. But none of this requires seeing the folks trying to escape into this country as somehow monstruous. Many people come here chasing dreams like "I always want my kids to have new shoes" or "I want to make some money so I can afford to marry my fiancee back home" or other stuff we've learned, under the corrupting glare of our affluence, to take for granted.

I don't read Malkin as hating illegals or hating immigrants, but that may be because I see things through the lens of having come from a family that had people in America as far back as the 1650s. The basic narrative of having had ancestors flee from Ireland and France so that the local idiot ruling classes would be spared the work involved in killing them isn't something I've forgotten, but it's distant and abstract when it didn't happen in my grandparents' generation or in their grandparents' generation.

In Malkin's defense, I think that pointing out incidents like this help to tame the inflated romantic notion that all illegal immigrants are just downtrodden, virtuous, hard working folks just looking for a better life for themselves and their families.

He's apparently not alone Val, remember that guy, your buddy from the Lott camp. And in my personal life, all the hard core conservatives I know, are extremely racist, they don't even bother to deny it, they acknowledge the fact that they think white people are better than the rest. I know people I know don't make up a majority or anything like that, But it dose make you wonder why they all like to huddle together in churches and the republican party?
There must be some connection.

"help to tame "

look they got company.

Val,
I live in Cochise County, Arizona and I can tell you that more than once a month someone crossing this part of the border illegally turns out to be a felon. This is a big problem.
I'm not against immigration at all, my grandparents came here from Ireland and Czechoslovakia (thank God). But, we need to control who is coming and who gets to stay.
As someone who lives about 4 miles from the Mexican border, I can tell you we're in deep trouble. My fear is we're not going to take it seriously until another 9/11 happens. Think about it on your trip to NYC.

Typically, the people who can't make it where they come from are the ones who come here. Maybe they are bright people and live in dumb countries, and maybe they are hoods who can't stay out of jail. They are misfits of every kind and some of them are exceptionally good and others are exceptionally bad. We can't all be instant Swedes.

Hernando de Soto had the most wisdom about this problem, and with it, pointed to the nearest solution: There is no stopping the movement of peoples, ever, in any history, on any continent. It has never happened. Best thing to do is accomodate and assimilate the migrants as best as we possibly can. Don't leave them on the outside if it can be possibly helped. American history is a long string of successes based on this accomodation of the people. At least George Bush understands this.

"help to tame "

look they got company.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Haha. Patrick - I know we've been down this road before - but just what notion do you have of illegal immigrants? I mean, according to you "the inflated romantic notion that all illegal immigrants are just downtrodden, virtuous, hard working folks just looking for a better life for themselves and their families" is out. So, what's left? I mean, what's the truth, the deflated truth that is?

All I want is for people to have some balance, for crying out loud. Opposing illegal immigration does not make a person a racist.

Not all people who immigrate to the US illegally fit the image of the poor downtrodden, hardworking imigrant that people cling to. Immigration reform is needed and it will not happen until people let go of this romantic notion. Realism is needed if we are going to deal with the problems we face with illegal immigration. Amnesty is not the answer.

Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. There is a process by which people can enter the US legally. Those who subvert this process are breaking the law.

Oh, no. Here we go. Sometimes I think Michelle, for such a smart women, is an idiot.

Been down this road before is an understatement. Basically I agree with A.M. Mora y Leon but I'll tell you when I read these words from the Statue of Liberty; "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" I know this may seem outdated idealistic crap to some but to me this is the heart of our country and what makes it great. So, as long as you're not a criminal, I say welcome to America.

So, as long as you're not a criminal, I say welcome to America.

Kathleen, good point. And the point I am trying to make. However, I would add, "Welcome to America. Please follow the proper procedures. There are many others in line ahead of you."

Patrick, you're arguing all illegal immigrants are criminals because they break immigration laws. In the legal sense, you are correct. But, say a Cuban speaks out against Castro - if we follow your logic - he is also a criminal, since Cuban state-security laws proscribe this? Laws are often unjust and detrimental to human freedom. I believe this country's current immigration policies fall under this category. I don't believe it diminishes the greatness of this nation to any great extent, but it's something I would like to see change.

Kathleen, I'm in full agreement.

Patrick, Sometimes circumstances are so desperate, there is no time for the line if you want to survive. This instance is where I have a hard time with the concept of "illegal" On paper it's true the law has been broken, but man's laws are not perfect and sometimes you have to go for what is morally right even if it breaks a law.

p.s. Val, notice I'm staying calm, not calling names?

Patrick, Sometimes circumstances are so desperate, there is no time for the line if you want to survive.

Isn't that what political amnesty is for, though? That is, there are ways of entering this country that do not necessitate breaking the law.

Yes, the current immigration laws make it difficult for people to become citizens, and I won't argue with you that a number of fine people have been impeded from immigrating by them. This is indeed unfortunate, and a sign that our immigration laws need fine-tuning.

That being said, the laws exist for a reason: to screen applicants as a means of preventing criminals and would-be insurgents from gaining citizenship and all of the privleges that affords. Indeed, while "laws are often unjust and detrimental to human freedom," a dearth of laws is just as detrimental to human freedom. Allowing everyone into the country without scrutiny of intent and temperament would be as inimical to our nation's health as allowing no one in. And so, our immigration laws need to be made just, and then they need to be enforced.

As a side note, I personally wouldn't have any problems with an amnesty program that requires those that take advantage of it to apply for full, legal citizenship.

Yoan: "But, say a Cuban speaks out against Castro - if we follow your logic - he is also a criminal, since Cuban state-security laws proscribe this?"

So US immigration policy, established by a freely elected government in a free society is the same as tyranical oppression in Cuba? Uh, ok.

"I believe this country's current immigration policies fall under this category."

Then work to change them. Until such time the law is the law. I think the amount I pay in taxes in unjust, but I gots to pay 'em.

Kathleen why would you need to call someone names just because they disagree with them?

Also, how many of the millions upon millions of illegal immigrants in the US were desperate to the point that you describe? A handful perhaps, but not between 10 and 18 million of them.

The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is about freedom not economic prosperity. "Yearning to breathe free." It's also not the law. It's a nice sentiment, but not law.

So US immigration policy, established by a freely elected government in a free society is the same as tyranical oppression in Cuba? Uh, ok.

You're great at taking things out of context. NOTICE HOW IN THAT VERY SAME COMMENT I SAID: "I don't believe it diminishes the greatness of this nation to any great extent, but it's something I would like to see change."

Patrick, I don't call people names because I diagree with them. I call people names when reasoning with them doesn't budge them from their ignorance and I get frustrated and lose my temper. You think only a handful of illegal immigrants are here out of desperation? You're kidding right?

"Allowing everyone into the country without scrutiny of intent and temperament would be as inimical to our nation's health as allowing no one in."

One Indian said to the other. As they watched a few funny looking boats one day

tens of millions are here out of desperation, right? riiiiight.

I call people names when reasoning with them doesn't budge them from their ignorance and I get frustrated and lose my temper

So ignorance means not seeing things your way?

Madtom, that was then, This is now.

"that was then, This is now."

Maybe those romanticized notions of freedom and liberty are just as outdated. We're here and free, fuck everybody else right. I think at a minimum we should extend the wet foot, dry foot to everyone already here. And work to change the conditions that draw people here.
I reject the Guest worker program as it will create a second class citizen without the right to vote. I think everyone working and living here should be on the same footing and have the same opportunities as the rest of us.

"Allowing everyone into the country without scrutiny of intent and temperament would be as inimical to our nation's health as allowing no one in."

One Indian said to the other. As they watched a few funny looking boats one day

If anything, this seems to agree with my point, rather than argue against it.

Patrick, How would you define desperate?