Que se jodan / They f&^%$ up themselves

Play with the bull, it should be no surprise you get the horns.

As they say in English: They made their bed and now they can sleep in it.

Sniff...

"Revenge is a dish that people of taste prefer to eat cold..."

OK, as someone who has advanced the idea that fidel may be defeated by flooding him with American money, I'll speak up. I didn't comment earlier because, as a greedy capitalist, I was working my second job - it doesn't give me full time access to a computer as my other job does. Ha.

I'm not at all surprised that fidel would pull something like this, and he's able to do it because we have a half-assed embargo. What does fidel need with a small business partner when he has Louisiana Governor Blanco visiting and giving him a blowjob?

So long as the embargo exists in a half-hearted way - allowing Orthodox Church members to stay in five-star hotels and shop at Cuban flea markets, allowing millionaires to attend cigar smokings, eat five-star hotel food, and enjoy their jineteras, and allowing canoe paddling Vietnam vets to frolic on Cuba's waterways - fidel will be able to control the situation.

The only way to defeat him, IMHO, is to either crack down and have a real embargo, or completely and fully renounce the embargo. Make a big showing of allowing Americans to trade with Cuba, offer to relocate the Twins to Havanna, and when fidel complicates things, raise hell internationally.

Which will work? I surely don't know. I've been rereading O. Henry, and I'm about to believe we need to organize filibusterers again - like my several times great uncle Gumersindo Antonio Pacetti who participated in one of the Lopez expeditions. Of course, he had to escape to Key West by hiding in a barrel towed behind a ship. I hope whatever happens has a better outcome.

I think Juan hit on a very good point about the embargo being half-assed. As long as we have Kathleen Blanco willing to trade with fidel, losing those small business ventures is not a big deal for him. And no one will notice those small businesses complaining because frankly, no one cares about them. What we need is the big boys to start whining, but fidel's too smart to let that happen. Any way you look at this, the Cuban people are still being oppressed while the regime benefits.

I am in favor of an embargo, but a real one, not what we have now.

Never thought of it in this context, but yeah, it seems to me that I agree with Paxety and Robert. If we have an embargo, then let it be a real one. Because what we really have is some stupid mirage that is used as leverage to sway American voters in all sorts of directions, and consequently it also fuels fidel's failure.

I am a hard-liner on this: screw the embargo. I want a blockade. Nothing goes in or out including tourists. If cagastro wants to be Mr. Macho Man of Latin America, then he can show the world who he is. Not that he will, of course.

He does accuse us of having a blockade. Maybe we need to give him what he's asking for.

By the way, observe that Venezuela is also trying to close some of its foreign options lately. They probably think that Cuba will supply! Bwahahahaha!

those who differ in opinion have quickly realized opposing views are not welcome.. seems someone has been saying "te lo dije" in one way or another for 46 years, but somehow the end result is castro still in power.. maybe the next step is the one that works, and we can all be in cuba by christmas.. i wonder why the chinese economy doesnt have these problems...

As I didn't answer on the comments on my anti-embargo comments on a previous post (sorry for that! didn't return yet to this blog), but I did answer by email to a blogger, I defended my position as such:

I was in Lybia one and a half month ago. You can say it is in a way similar to Cuba, although in fact the huge oil reserves make it far easier to keep up a similar regime as it is not that difficult for the government to controll the only real economic competitive advantage they have (except from labour).

Kadaffi has some kind of mix of socialism and islamism. Of course, he does a good job for the women, just as Saddam did. That's the official speech to please the left in the West. In reality, you couldn't see a lot of women on the streets, as opposed to the "islamofundamentalist" Iran, which is said to be full of girls on the streets.

You can say Lybia is communist too. In the bars and restaurants, 80 % of the employees are foreigners (Tunesians and Egyptians), because the Lybians get welfare from the oil money and don't have any incentive to work. This combined with a huge black market of course.

Well, I believe that if there starts emerging a tourist industry (hotels, bars and restaurants), it will be more difficult for the regime to controll two core economical sectors than just one, and they'll have to give up power. Same like in Cuba, I would say.

What has the US economic embargo done, besides, to help? It's been there for so long, and one should question whether it doesn't create the ideal external ennemy Castro desires to legitimise himself?

Besides, another factor is coming into play. The Chinese might got interested in having an ally close to the US border, in order to achieve their imperialist ambitions (which will fail according to me, because due to the rise of the Chinese entrepeneurial class, they'll have enough work in their own house to keep up their criminal dictatorship).

I'll think it should be considered by all the brave Cubans in the US fighting Castro, to choose another strategy. Let the criminal stay in power, if that is the price to be paid for people growing rich and finally overthrowing their own regime. But even then, the regime should never be morally legitimised by political activists, as is sometimes done with the Chinese.

This text of the Mises Institute might be worth reading: http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1747

daniel,

It's not that you have an opposing point of view, it's that you are impertinent in your lack of offering a viable solution. You criticize those that believe in the embargo but do not bring anything to the table otherwise.

What is your solution?

Give us a step by step breakdown of how YOU would resolve the problem. Certainly, criticizing me for my support for the embargo isnt going to do it.

Daniel,

Did you get my last e-mail?

I don't think you have a solution, otherwise I think you would have told us by now. In our private correspondence, you've spent more time criticizing than you have offering a solution.

You can have a differing solution to the ones offered here, as long as its done intelligently and without unjust criticism of those who think differently from you. Unfortunately, we're still waiting for your answer. If you want the embargo lifted, then just say it, but say it with intelligent reasons to back it up, not just because you hate the "hard liners".

man, i know english isnt my first language, but i started using it when i was 8 and ive been using it for 25 years now, and what ive been trying to say is THE CURRENT APPROACH HAS NOT PRODUCED ONE SINGLE POSITVE RESULT.. the embargo and tightening of restrictions HAS NOT produced the desired result.. it seems that the tighter the noose is pulled the tighter fidels grip on the island gets.. IT HAS NOT WORKED in 46 years and it HAS NOT gotten any better.. if any one thinks otherwise by all means show us when/ where it has worked.. I DONT HAVE AN ANSWER and i doubt anyone else does, cause they would have implemented it by now.. but i know the CURRENT approach is not working.. can we agree on that? can anyone here say it has worked? before we fix the problem, we need to admit the current "solution" isnt working.. im not criticizing "anyone" personally, what i am criticizing is a flawed approach/remedy that IS NOT getting anyone anywhere.. again, if anyone feels the embargo "is" working, maybe if you explain it to me i might see your point..

daniel,

I think it depends on how you look at the embargo's real purpose. First, it was obvioulsy nothing but a diplomatic gesture up until the early nineties when the Soviet bloc fell since Cuba was being subsidized by their russian communist counterparts. So, in effect, the embargo only truly began acting as an embargo at that point.

Now, yes, it's true, the embargo ideally was supposed to help topple fidel castro's government. But we cant view that as its primary goal. The primary goal was supposed to be to keep money out of fidel castros hands in order to destabilize his economy. You can say in no uncertain terms that the embargo has not worked, an opinion to which you are entitled, but i can also say that it has worked, albeit not perfectly, because it has kept money out of the coffers of fidel castro's regime.

If castro has been able to keep the Cuban people in what basically amounts to bondage, without any economic benefit from the United States, what do you think his regime could have been capable of had he had those billion of dollars a year from the US under his control?

In another thread you spoke of absolutes and being tired of them, yet you promote the embargo as being an absolute failure, when in fact, it cant be described as such. Sure, it has failed to dethrone fidel castro, but it has, at least, kept him at bay. I shudder to think of a fidel castro with a strong economy. That in itslef, is one hell of a scary thing indeed.

Of course, you can also make the argument that US goods and services and tourists would help open up the country and foster some kind of change that way. Perhaps. perhaps not. impossible to tell as once the money is in Cuba it is fidel castros money.

But think about it. In a country where everything is overwhelmingly controlled, from what you wear to what you eat to where you live and where you work, from what you can and cannot say or do, where access to media from the outside is strictly either prohibited or censored, in a country where the average person is not allowed any individual freedom, such as owning and operating a business or comingling with foreigners or even growing extra crops to feed your own family, what are the chances of that very same government - being able to have an even stronger economic control over its people by having its ways and having much more of an economic backbone and thus no impetus to change - actually allowing those same individual freedoms for its people?

In an ideal world having Cuba flooded with US goods and materials and americans and all that might actually foster a change, but given fidel's history we all know Cuba to be anything but ideal.

Daniel: You should preface your statement with "In my opinion the embargo does not work." This is, in my opinion, why you get the reaction that you do. That and the fact that you offer no proof for your statements.
It is my opinion that you are wrong. The embargo has worked and is working now. You completely ignore the fact that fidelito can and does trade with whomever he likes, with exception of the US. And even with the restrictions there are still some avenues of trade allowed. Our country does not require that our trading partners,(Canada or the EU for example), cease trade relations with them. If anything, the embargo SHOULD have no decernable effect. I say should because the embargo is NOT the problem we are discussing. What we are discussing is the failure of the current Cuban government to, well, govern. The embargo is a straw man and I all know this and it is disingenous on your part to present it as the underlying reason for fidelito's failure.
If you ask me if I think the Cuban nationals within Cuba are suffering, I say unequivicol yes, but if you wish to rationalize and lay blame, then at least place it where it has been earned.
One other point I would like to make, I do not fault fidelito alone and it is a dis-service to this dicussion to pretend that fidelito is involved in every decision from the top down. I believe names should be named, (when possible). In the present state most of these decisions are made by people who have no accoutability, here or anywhere else, because of the absence of a free press. That is one of the advantages of being the ruling class in a totalitarian society.
Remember, Behind every gun is a willing finger.

WOW ok i feel like columbus discovering america ok i think were getting somewhere here.. i got two good responses here so here i go with my thoughts:
VAL
(the embargo is good) because it has kept money out of the coffers of fidel castro's regime.

money has found its way there ANYWAYS, from european/south american investments/ tourists.. true, a US injection would increase this amount by alot, BUT, im from the 'give them a taste of capitalism and watch what happens'.. my evidence of this is the black market in cuba.. those who know anything about this know that the 'western' brands ARE in high demand, and even with the hunger and personal needs, money IS spent on 'luxury' items like sneakers and cd's and stuff we take for granted here.. if the public had more access for them, the demand rises, and the ability to aquire those items would also be demanded.. again, its my opinion, but i think that 'el pueblo' exposed to it would ask for it..

val, you also mention a castro with a 'healthy economy'.. i think it could not happen, i think a healthy economy would negate a need for him on the island.. with no offense to anyone, i liken it to an abusive relationship.. you know its detrimental to you, but you cant get away from it, because of fear or insecurity.. well, i think a strong economy would be the light that goes off and says "i need to get out of this" (getting rid of castro).. i feel that once they realize that they can watch 'mesa redonda' on a digital flat screen (ok, bad joke, but hey thats me) lets say they say "i can watch every single yankee game", or they can buy the microwave, or whatever it is, even basic foodstuff, they realize there is no need for the 'current' system.. and the only reason i entertain these ideas, is because the current ones fail to remove his stranglehold on the island..

BILL
i dont think the embargo has worked at all, and the only evidence i can present is castro is still in power, his stranglehold has not weakened.. every year we hear stories of how NOW is REALLY the end because they have more power outages and more shortages, but somehow he manages to stay.. i may have mis read this statement you made:
The embargo is a straw man and I all know this and it is disingenous on your part to present it as the underlying reason for fidelito's failure.

i never said the embargo is WHY fidel failed.. it was flawed from the start, destined to fail, the intent may have been good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.. there were some issues that needed to be addressed, but the approach and the messenger were all wrong..

Imagine if elloko kagastro had been smart enough to not let himself be blinded by ideology (anybody who would let himself be influenced by an asmatic "md" who could not even, as my father says 'cure himself,' can't be that smart) and, instead of trashing the Cuban economy and driving the talent out of Cuba, had instead managed to keep the economy going by harnessing that native talent, and giving the Cuban people a reason to "work hard for the motherland." He would likely have wound up with plenty of resources to carry out his anti-Yankee agenda with a vengeance. Sort of what Chavez is trying to do with Venezuelan oil. Fortunately, most if not all these caciques, which seem to infest this hemisphere, get too blinded by megalomania to think straight.

Maybe I shouldn't post this. elloko kagastro may get ideas. Nah, he's un cabezon hijoputa. Since these whining "business types" haven't figured that out, though, he'll keep playing with them and fleecing them some more. What some people will do for money! Or the illusion of money. Son todos unas putas. Que se jodan.

daniel,

First, I have never stated that the embargo is "good". It is but a necessary evil.

money has found its way there ANYWAYS, from european/south american investments/ tourists.. true, a US injection would increase this amount by alot, BUT, im from the 'give them a taste of capitalism and watch what happens'...>/i>

Ok, so dont you think its a bit patronizing to state that the US and the US alone can give people on the island a "taste of capitalism?" Theyve been tasting capitalism from the Spaniards, the French, the Canadians, the Japanese, the Euros for over a decade now and what change has it fostered? Has fidel castro made any effort to truly allow Cubans to operate their own business or fend for themsleves? Are there still prisoners of conscience on the island? The lifting of the embargo will automatically open up all those jail cells and money will be falling from the skies into cubans wallets and purses.

Coño, man, 'tas bien cabezon con esto.

my evidence of this is the black market in cuba.. those who know anything about this know that the 'western' brands ARE in high demand, and even with the hunger and personal needs, money IS spent on 'luxury' items like sneakers and cd's and stuff we take for granted here.. if the public had more access for them, the demand rises, and the ability to aquire those items would also be demanded.. again, its my opinion, but i think that 'el pueblo' exposed to it would ask for it..

Ah yes, the black market, where some Cubans obtain goods from the Cuban government, after having given said government their cut, and then turn around and sell them to Cubans who want or need whatever it is theyre selling. And where do you think the money to buy these things on the black market would come from, daniel? castro surely isnt going to allow foreign businesses to actually pay their own Cuban employees. He will continue his indentured servitude system, where the foreign business pays castro top dollar and fidel in turn pays meager wages to the Cuban, and in Cuban pesos. thus getting another cut.

of course, I suppose money to buy all those Nikes and Fendi purses and digital flatscreen TVs could come from abroad, from us evil exiles, and then castro will get his cut of that too.

its a win win win situation for fidel castro, he gets gets his share for being the middle man in supplying the goods, gets his share as the employment manager and supplying the workers and then gets his share in being the pecuniary exchanger. See how that works?

Sheesh man, forcrissakes, its so plainly OBVIOUS.

Daniel: Once again you ignore the elephant in the parlor; this a totalitarian police state we are discussing. Why do I have to remind you of this fact? Oh, I remember.....you don't have any experience with one. Do you?
Do you actually believe that it is a "fear or insecurity" that enslaves the Cuban people? If so, please say so. Stop laying blame in the wrong direction and present a cogent set of ideas to replace this dictatorship with something that will ensure SOME form of economic stability.
You have not presented one iota of proof,(evidence), that fidelito has remained in power because of the embargo. I, on the otherhand, have made the case that fidelito has more than 200 countries with which to trade and has failed.
As to your assurance that "the road to hell is filled with good intentions", I say "narrow the path and broad the way, that leads to the gates of heaven."
You seem to want simple solution, but the truth is that the simple solution is not always the BEST solution and it is often judged simple in retrospection. My comment regarding the "straw man" was that it is easier to debate something you can do nothing about,( the weather, for example), than debate that which is in our power to change.
Remember: Behind every gun, a willing finger.

jajajajajaja que bueno

Daniel, you said this:

i liken it to an abusive relationship.. you know its detrimental to you, but you cant get away from it, because of fear or insecurity..

I believe it is safe to assume that is precisely the problem with the Cuban society today. I believe that fidel is fully aware of this as well. However, killing the embargo is not the solution.

Given that Cuba's original position, as stated in their preamble of their (BS communist constitution), they are fighting "Yanqui Imperialism."

Fighting "Yanqui Imperialism" is defined today as "el bloqueo." Yet, if we look at recent events between the Menage-a-Trois of Brazil, Venezuela, and Cuba, specifically at their ALBA program. I believe that it is safe to say that if the US drops the embargo, it will only be a matter of time before fidel raises his own, in the spirit of ALBA and in the spirit of fighting "Yanqui Imperialism." Do you really think fidel will go down that easy?

Then the abusive relationship continues, and now it is completely centralized within the Island. And once again, fidel wins. fidel doesn't care about money as much as he cares about power, and with or without money he will find ways to oppress. I for one would rather have him oppress with as little cash in his pocket as possible. I'm for a "real" embargo, one that pinches castro and his convertible peso until it hurts him as much as he is hurting is own people. And please do not forget that back in the early '60s he was chanting "Cuba SI, Yanqui NO" way before the Embargo. fidel will keep true to that so long as he can remain in power.

Moreover, if you haven't noticed, getting out of the poverty in Cuba, is only done by joining the communist party. Fancy that coincedence and assuringly subtle purpose for keeping such a majority of people poor.

Daniel, Cuba will be saved not such much by an embargo, but by more programs like APSC. And in order to fund these groups with cold hard non-convertible-peso cash, the US needs to be holding the embargo cards -not fidel. It's the one thing fidel can't control: the focal direction of US currency to anti-fidel organizations. It's not about Cuba getting money, but rather WHO in Cuba is getting it.

BILL: Oh, I remember.....you don't have any experience with one. Do you?
actually, i do.. ive seen it in haiti (which is without a doubt the poorest country ive ever seen, things are no worse economically in cuba), ive seen it in cuba (yes, first hand)
i do feel it is fear and insecurity that enslaves the cuban people.. they know no other system other than "fidel will show us the way", and many on the island would blindy follow him into whatever he puts in their path.. there are dissidents, there are the full blown castristas, but the largest segment i believe are the sheep, who dont know better, or any other system, and feel only castro can show them the way.. a fear of the unknown.. as far as proof that the embargo is WHY fidel is in power, just the same i can ask you, do you have proof the embargo is working? has the embargo loosened his grip? are the cubans on the island any better off? are there financial/economic/political/ social freedoms because the embargo is in place? what good comes of the embargo? i say it hasnt been tried, so maybe it could work.. i simply say TRY because we havent done that yet.. everyone asks ME for the burden of proof, but i can point back to 46 years of failure to show the current approach is not producing the desired result..
SONQUACASSAL: check your email

daniel,

Again, and I reiterrate for like the umpteenth time, I hear alot of whining from you and much criticism, yet you offer no solution. Either quit bitching and moaning and show the world your plan, or I will start deleting your boo-hoo-hoos.

Daniel, it's Songuacassal with a G not a Q, so please try to email me again if you like. And you may want to consider posting whatever secret facts you want to send me and keep from the people here at Babalu. I find it strange that you seem to refuse to post any response to all of my questions/comments directed at you. And not only that, but you have failed to provide any facts at all. So please email and do post. And above all, make sure you make sense.

Daniel: The first rule of filling a hole is to stop digging.
The elephant is still in the parlor and you still have not acknowledged that he is there. Meaning that Cuba is a CLOSED society and anything coming from Cuban official sources is manufactured. Spin what you will, until you acknowledge this basic reality, any reference you make to their cause is flawed, simply because there is no method to verify legitimacy of your claims.
Regarding the sheep anology, I believe some of the Cuban people do know and support fidelidioto and his professed beliefs, and in a sense they also are reponsible for the continued failure. What do you want from me? My blood? My son's blood? His son's blood? Because you are to lazy to solve your own mess? Been there, done that....move on ...nothing to see here. Parhenthetically speaking, I, me, mine, can and will defend ourselves, convince us that you are a serious threat...see what happens.
You may impart whatever significance you wish to the embargos effectiveness, but the presumption you make is that the status quo is directly proportional to the embargo; that Cuba's continual economic crises are caused by the embargo. I continue to point out to you that fidelidioto, as the ubervader is reponsible for that failure. You also presume that the primamry intent was to un-seat fidelidioto, and as such, it has failed. The jury is still out on that issue. I will get back to you at the appropriate time with the appropriate response.
I would also add that I don't know you from Adam's house cat, but I don't believe you when you equate Cuba with Haiti and state that one is no different than the other.
Since you brought up the subject, pretend I am from Missouri, show me. Your own photos will suffice. Otherwise, stop posing.
In conclusion, it is foolish to expect the US to give aid and comfort to this regime AND THOSE THAT SUPPORT THEM. Why would we? Why should we? The U.S. is NOT Cuba's enemy, but rather fidelidioto has declared that he is the enemy of the U.S.
I count no man an enemy, with the exception of he who counts me as his....
Don't go away mad, just go away.

Gwad dam this is better than “La Tremenda Corte” I am about to pee !
Deja Vu all over again god damn it , and now it is the Europeans crying foul. I can just see Bush with that texas twang going “well... they're fucked alright" And the cultist wonder why we don’t want to to business with Ill Cappi de tutti pricks !.
This little "take back" has been in the works since the last Cubanacan president got dumped (of whom by the way no one knows anything) . Apparently The Beast got wind through his effeminate brother than the people at the helm of foreign business were making bad deals (purposely) so that there would be some under the table bucks.
I know ONE interesting story of a Cubanacan administrator who went to China to buy straws ( sipping straws "pajitas" so this guy gets a deal of a life time, like a fraction of a fraction of what they had been paying in Europe. So the stupid fuck gets back to Cuba and there’s a brand new BMW waiting for him as a present from the Chinese company along with several secret agent members and again that was the last anyone heard from this stupid fuck. The pajitas were never delivered because Castro felt there was something fishy and didn’t pay for them. The SUMO HIJO DE PUTA can not conceive that someone can actually work a deal on his own that will benefit the country.. TOO RISKY, having actual CAPABLE people in charge???? Nope you need thick as brick cult followers who will call Kasstro if they need to take a sizeable dump.

The next was the "intervention" of Marina Hemingway, totally false charges of minor corruption and Coke trafficking and the poor guy was lucky to leave Cuba alive. Now he is appealing to international courts to get his 80 million.. Yeah sure.

My contacts tell me that every employee on the Melia chain is shitting bricks because if The Beast decides to REALLY have 100% control of all business The Melia hotels will look like Ave Mondongo within a week.

To the rest of those Italians, Dutch, German, Spanish , Canadian business men who thought they were making a killing ... FUCK YOU ALL!
Make a bundle off of the sweat of 12 million slaves. You DESERVE to be fleeced Now, thank GOD they will let you out alive , go do some lobbying with your country’s (this may help US) government , and thing TWICE next time you do business with a despot.