Heh!. George, dont hold your breath man.

Funny, I used that very phrase when I ended my comment yesterday: "I won't hold my breath for your answers..."

(1) Please explain how lifting the embargo will improve the lives of everyday Cubans.

but can you point to examples of how the embargo has improved the life of everday cubans or weakend castros stranglehold on the island? we can go in circles for ever here..

(2) If the embargo has been such a failure, as we are told ad nauseum, then why is it so critical to lift it?
?? maybe i misread it.. if it has been a failure, why would you keep it in place? i for one would like to see it eased up a bit, and i am more fore easing the travel restrictions FOR FAMILY purposes and money transfers for families.. i also think the embargo should be eased for essentials, food stuffs, the like, im not saying send high ticket items YET, but an easing of certain items yes..

(3) Explain how a regime that denies basic human rights to its citizens, arrests people who are selling black-market cheese, denies basic nutrition to its citizens while feeding tourists, has defaulted on BILLIONS of dollars, has expropriated BILLIONS in property, can be trusted to do the right thing once the embargo is lifted?
from where i am coming from, i am more intererested in the people, the families, not the regime.. i am not for punishing the sins of the father on the sons.. the residents are the true victims of the policies, not castro, who already has his coffers full right?

(4) Explain why the Cuban exile community continues to be vilified, libeled, and slandered as "extremists" and "terrorists" while at the same time being the most successful group of immigrants this country has ever seen.
while as a cuban american i am proud, i think many groups have equally been succesful, and i think this remark makes others feel slighted.. i think irish and italians who have come here have done rather well for themselves.. those were immigrant groups as well.. i would not say it is THE MOST, i would say it is AMONG THE MOST..

(5) Who are these Cuban-Americans that comprise the "terrible leadership we have in Miami"?

mas-santos just doesnt have the same heavyweight clout mas-canosa did.. canf took a dive when the old man died.. in the old days politicians went out of their way to meet with canosa.. today, santos doesnt even get his calls returned.. it is terrible leadership because not one individual has managed to UNITE all the different elements that make up the exile community, to work out differences, and try to come to an agreement

(6) Please detail the terrorist acts the Cuban exile community has committed. Actual court case citations are preferred.

while it has not been as bad as it once was, the milian incident (shortly after he suggested dialogue) and padron cigars and replica magazine offices getting bombed (after visiting cuba/ suggesting open dialogue).. the timing is very suspect.. it could have been the extreme right, it could have been castro supporters trying to damage the right.. but, tit for tat, can you PROVE lesnik is a castro agent? can you prove aruca is one? you dont need a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing right? ALOT of crap gets thrown around, without verifiable proof..
just my opinions, which i am entitled to in this country right?
all the best
daniel

Hi George, Val...

Just some quick comments...

1. The embargo has had one effect that nobody talks about: Castro's debt to USA is zero. And I think that is a very good thing. And we should opose the use of Federal moneys to secure credits and things like that that are intended to foment exports. I understant that the Iowans want to sell their products and I think that they have rights to do so. But don't count on me to reduce your financial risks.

2.- I personally have a problem with our Government telling the citizens where they can go and where they can't and how can they spent their money.

3.- I don't feel that there is a "Leadership" of the exile comunity. Some groups and persons have access to the Media and some have access to resources. It might seem at times that they speak for everyone (because they are the ones doing the talking) but that doesn't make them leaders or anything like that.

4.- Some acts (like the bombing of the Cubana plane, for example) are terrorist acts. They are not the work of the Cuban exile community and the ones that say the the majority of the Cubans exiles support those acts are wrong or are lying.

daniel,

(1)but can you point to examples of how the embargo has improved the life of everday cubans or weakend castros stranglehold on the island? we can go in circles for ever here..

It is not up to the embargo to improve the everyday lives of Cubans, that responsibility lies solely on the government of Cuba, and their lives could be improved, if lifting the embargo were truly at fault, by the government of Cuba abiding by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Again, the embargo may not have weakened fidel castro's hold, but as I told you privately the other day, it has kept him at bay. If fidel castro has been able to strangle his people with an embargo, imagine his choke hold without one, where not only is he the one everyone would be doing business but also with a book of withdrawal tickets from the World Bank.

And you still have not answered George's question.

(2) The embargo has not been a total failure, see comment above.

(3) Wherever it is that you are coming from, you are skirting the question. Answer the question.

(5) daniel, getting nearly 2 million people with diverse opinions and groups is for all intents and purposes impossible. I believe George's question refers to Cuban-Americans in genral, being slighted and ignored by the MSM and the liberal left. For every other single minority group, the liberl left and the MSM states that the average white person cannot truly understand their situation as they arent in fact part of that minority, except, of course, when it comes to Cuban-Americans. The the MSM and the liberal left know oh so much more about their situation.

and let me expound a but on 4.. while i know many do not SUPPORT those type of acts, not many CONDEM those who support/ or act on them.. because heaven forbid you condem them, you could very well be seen as a castristacommunista supporter.. and that is part of what divides it all.. either you buy your thoughts from the hardline, or youre castrista..

Daniel, thanks for the answers.

You pretty much gave your answers to #5 and #6.

Your politically correct answer to #4 is nice, but not factual: Cuban-Americans have been the most successful immigrant in the shortest period of time in US history. I am not taking anything away from other groups; I am just stating facts. (I am not a chest-pounding, self-loathing Cuban American, racked with guilt.)

Now, for your answer to #2 refer my question #3. You did not misread it: we hear the argument from the left all the time that the embargo is a failure. If that is the case, then why not just leave it as a token response to castro's evil regime? This question has a very simple answer.

You can do better than your answer to #3. Come on...

And for #1, I asked first...

its a loaded question, there is no response.. how can i prove something that does not exist.. i dont know the mechanics behind it, because we have not seen cuba with out the embargo.. its like if i asked you, would bay of pigs succeeded with air support? give facts to back up your statement.. or if i said "had the us initiated an appropriate milatary response to cuba after the brothers to the rescue shootdown, what would have been the result.." we cant say.. now, i understand what you said the other day in your email to me, however, i think that opening up the doors to cuba would accomplish is that it will put them under the eye of the world/investors, who right now seem to turn a blind eye because well, the just have no interest (read $$$) in what happens on the island.. one or two or three banks in spain and italy can just write off the loss.. but when its big multi nationals, they are gonna notice.. ever hear that when countries default on loans the us just sends the marines in to pick up the check? again, right now, "the world" could care less of what is happening on the island cause they have not interest there, but, without an embargo IT MAY put presure for easing of oppression... but we just may never find out will we.. maybe im too optomistic.. maybe your too pessimistic.. you can prove to history and say look what hes done and every turn.. i can just as well point back and say yeah, but the current approach hasnt accomplshed anything either.. as far as it being a total failure, castro still managed to become one of the richest man in the world, and oppression has not stopped.. the islanders continue to suffer.. i do not see what it has accomplished..

Daniel, the financial community KNOWS about the defaults. Not only the corporate defaults, the "nationalizations," but the country loans, as well.

fidel castro never intends to repay a dime to anyone. He is a thief. A murdering thief. Yet, even with all of the evidence of his myriad crimes, there are still companies and governments that want to do business with him. Why? The sales will be guaranteed by Uncle Sam. This taxpayer is saying, "no f---ing way!" If we stop the embargo, the US taxpayer will eventually pay for this theft.

This is why I rhetorically asked why anyone would want to do business with someone who would fail a basic credit score test! As they say, fool me once...

OH MY LORD!!!

Daniel, they islanders continue to suffer because of THEIR GOVERNMENT, and not the embargo. For crying out loud man. Cuba trades WITH EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!! And the islanders ARE STILL up shit's creek.

Are there or are there not stores in Cuba that carry everything the western world has to offer? Yes or no?

Can a tourist purchase, say, a twelve pack of Heinekens in Cuba, yes or no?

So, I submit to you, one final question, what embargo are you talking about? Because there's products and goods for sale in Cuba, fidel just doesnt allow Cubans to buy them.

dude, I am so over this topic. Sheesh.

because we have not seen cuba with out the embargo.. Yes, we have, pre-castro and Cuba was the 4th largest economy in the Americans with a line of people waiting to immigrate into Cuba.

I accidentally clicked the post button and was not finished with my comment. The correction is: Yes, we have, pre-castro and Cuba was the 4th largest economy in the Americas with a line of people waiting to immigrate into Cuba. It's clear that castro has destroyed a once thriving country, and stolen billions of dollars from his people and other nations. by imposing the embargo, the US is taking the correct moral stand as well as protecting the American tax payers money from winding up in one fidels bank accounts.

What a load of inarticulate drivel! I'm more than happy to answwer your questions.

1. The embargo has failed because after 45 years, Castro is still in power and the only victims are the Cuban people. That's probably the biggest example of failure in the history of the world!!! Tourism and business links would help Cubans because Cubans would have more contact with the outside world, just as tourism already does. Or are you suggesting that things were better in the Periodo Especial? If US companies had a stake in Cuba then the US governmnet could leverage that stake to demand political reforms. At present, they have no leverage.

2. If the embargo has no effect (as our leadership claims) and Castro just uses it as an excuse for his own failings, then the smart thing to do would be to remove the excuse. That would expose Castro.

If you are so pro-embargo, then I suggest that stop sending money to your relatives and practice what you preach.

3. Free trade is a matter for the companies that wish to trade. It's their risk, just like free trade is anywhere. If they don't think it worth the risk, they won't trade. Simple.

4. There's no contradiction between being successful and being seen as extremists.

5. CANF etc. You know who I am talking about. C'mon.

6. Bombs planted in Cuban hotels, the airliner bomb, bombs and threats in Miami etc etc.

***************************************

Now, rather than dwell too much on the past, we need to look to the future. The 1960's and that that generation is OVER. We need an enlightened leadership for the modern times. A leadership that deals with reality, rejects violence, supports democracy, and understands that change in Cuba must be led and supported by Cubans in Cuba.

Until such time as we have such a leadership in place, we will continue to be percieved, rightly, as a BUNCH OF LOSERS.We can talk to ourselves all day and all night. We can convince the converted that we are right. But until we grow up and change our methods, we will NEVER convince anyone else.

You can call me pro-Castro if you like. But all I've done is pointed out the obvious truth that you are too scared to confront. The policy has been an UNMITIGATED DISASTER. Grow up. Get real. Stop sticking your head in the sand and face reality. It is YOU who is objectively pro-Castro, because everthing you do and have done for 45 years has played right into his hands. With enemies like you, what use has Castro for friends?

"Inarticulate drivel"? Man, I have been called a lot of things in my life, but never inarticulate! From your tone, Bob, I'd have to guess you were a former operative for Sidney Blumenthal or Terry McAuliffe. Who knew? I'll address your so-called "answers" after my lunch hour when I will need a good digestive...

ok, so we are running around in circles.. to be honest, i could give three sheets about the embargo, but personally, i dont think it has acheived anything.. like someone else said, i really dont like the government telling me where i can visit and where i can send my money.. i happen to send money elsewhere, but if my wife and kids happened to be in cuba you can be damn sure id send it there.. even if castro taking 50% of it meant my wife and kids were eating, i would do it.. maybe the embargo ISNT the answer, or the problem.. for me, i see two immediate objectives 1) ease suffering and repression 2) see a change in the system in cuba, this cannot be brought about overnight, it will fail, this has to be years of work.. is the answer kill castro or his death? no, because like ive said before castros death just brings raul into power.. then alarcon.. then another long line of castro cronies.. try this on for size: the embargo is just another device that divides the cuban community.. here we are, all with the same objective (more or less, the end of suffering and opression in cuba) and we cant have a civilized conversation because we dont agree on this topic.. i can round up 50 cubans, ask for an opinion, and get 175 different responses.. one cant make up his mind, another answers one way cause his friend is close by and he doesnt want him to think he is castrista, but he pulls you to the side and says oh BTW i send dollars to cuba through a connection and so on and so on.. all this dissent makes castro more powerful.. its why hes managed to stay in power (again val dont take this wrong way, read between the mines bro) the exile community cannot agree on 5 points.. everyone wants to be the big cheese.. the embargo is a silly talking point that has gotten us NO CLOSER to our desired goal.. its the embargo, its castros millions stashed away, its this, its that, its the other.. all of it, petty topics that keep us from focusing on the MAIN ISSUE: the end of suffering and oppression in cuba.. and like i said before, the answer is not as simple as "removing castro".. because after him, then what? reprisals? revenge? how do we rebuild? who will pay for it? where wil the iterim government come from? who will select it? can/will cuban americans just go back like if nothing happened? what about property? will it be returned to rightful owners? do we tell the family who stayed there for 46 years, hey it really wasnt yours in the first place so to bad so sad? what about law and order? who will provide it? and the jails? they are full, do we just open them up, or try to separate the intellectuals from the real criminals? but we dont have a single freakin clue on any of this cause here we are, arguing the embargo.. we want the same result, but we cant sit at the trough of freedom cause were still arguing over the approach.. you know what, maybe we should realize we have been our own worst enemy all along..
btw val, click on my name for the email i have no idea why the old account froze up

Daniel,

I give up man. You expect us to make concession while refusing to accept the fact that hard data and facts require you to make concessions of your own.

You can go on ad infintum about repression on the island and traveling freely and yada yada yada. Im done with you on this topic.

lift the embargo all together so items can go in by the tons and i promise i can get much needed ammo on the island,lift travel and i can get some willing (highly trained) buddies in cuba to risk it all while taking out the beast,im not blowing smoke,take it very seriously.

Ay Dios mio.....

No, George. I'm not a follower of anyone. Just an ordinary educated Cuban-American who came here as a pedro pan kid. But I do have a BRAIN, and I can see that our leadership has FAILED. If want to pretend that failure = success, then you will be still be blogging in another 45 years. Good luck! You want Castro gone. I want Castro gone. But you've got to win people over, and that means being moderate and sensible.

no, dont give up, ever, on anything.. if you feel strongly, stick to it, because if you change one person, then that person can change another, and so on and so on.. dont take this the wrong way, but 46 years ago, if people hadnt given up so easily on talking, maybe today we wouldnt be having this discussion.. now, what concessions do you want me to make? that castro is an SOB? a liar? a cheat? that he kicks puppies walking down the street? i dont expect you or anyone to make any concessions.. i do think it would be PRUDENT to research ALTERNATIVE approaches to current ones that have not succeeded in change.. and why simply wave off my going on about repression on the island? is that so trivial it warrants a 'yadayadayada'? i think its alot more important than that.. maybe i got you at a bad moment.. if youre having a bad day i hope it gets better.. but here is one iondividual who would like to see the same end result, and simply cause i would like to seek alternatives i get all sorts of crap unloaded on me..

daniel,

The whole is that YOU DONT seek alternatives. You keep saying lift the embargo but you produce no clear plan beyond that. Its like you are proposing a "let's lift the embargo and see what happens" approach.

george's first question, despite paragraph upon paragraph upon runon paragraph from you remains unanswered.

1) Please explain how lifting the embargo will improve the everyday lives of ordinary (non-tourist and non-apparatchik) Cubans

thats the question, now give us your answer. When, how, what are the plusses, what are the minuses, pros, cons, etc..

And for the love of God, please dont start your response with "the embargo hasnt worked for 46 years and is a failed policy."

I truly want to take you seriously, but crying foul about the embargo and whining about repression doesnt answer the damn question, man.

IF we were to simply lift the embargo/restrictions, it would not work.. it cant be a simlple one day on one day off approach.. it should be a slow and steady approach.. personally, i think the first two changes should be a) no restriction on family travel, and b) no restrictions on money tranfers for families.. my defenition of family would by mother/father/brother/sister/son/daughter/grandparents/aunts/uncles.. what do i hope this achieves? simple: family togetherness.. it makes this difficult situation easier to deal with when the families are allowed contact.. the free flow of money to the family will also make a dificult situation easier to deal with.. my PERSONAL opinion here is, even if castro takes a cut, ones family still gets dollars that make life a bit easier.. its a bitter pill to swallow, but what toilet do you want to drink out of? your family suffers but castro doesnt get your money, or do you send help while he lines his already bulging pockets.. now, how does this make the life of everday cubans better? well, ever been in the hospital? how does a visit from family make you feel? maybe im naive, or too simplistic, but i think a family visit can do wonders for your emotional well being.. maybe it doesnt bring castro down, but that family contact, nothing can top it.. so castro makes money if you buy meat/food and other products for your family before you leave.. are we going to cut our nose to spite our face? you rather your family suffer and go hungry than give him your money? i guess this is a PERSONAL issue, and no one really has the right to DENY anyone the right to help their family.. you want to hold YOUR pride and not visit or buy stuff for your family, fine, but why deny others that right.. now, a point i have maintained all along is just because castro dies does not mean regime change.. i am of the opinion, that after fidel, and after raul, even if its alarcon, the current stance towards the us would EASE UP a bit.. a bit more open.. not full blown yankee doodle dandy, but one of look, lets get the past behind us and move ahead.. BOTH SIDES at this point, the us and cuban governments, would SLOWLY AND CAUTIOUSLY ease into a new approach.. those seeds should start to be planted today.. the us should be prepared to begin an EASING of restrictions, little by little, make it easier for american products to reach the island.. i am NOT advocating abandoning the deposit the money first before the products leave the shore policy, but, i am saying we should INVESTIGATE alternatives that make this transfer easier.. i am not an economist or a banker, but maybe one out there has ideas.. what does this accomplish? well, this again works on the belief that the post castro (while still socialist) government eases conditions within the island as well.. perhaps part of the give and take (remember, any other leader besides castro will be easier to stomach) is allowing free enterprise, or open markets, for the residents.. again, i cant assure you this will work or this is the way its going to be, but then again, you cant state for sure that a non fidel/raul government would maintain the current approach either.. its all baby steps man, little by little, slow and steady.. but the one point i just cant waiver on, is the family issue.. i think those restrictions should be lifted like yesterday.. i see no reason to IMPOSE those on anyone.. you want to keep your pride and not visit while fidel is there fine, i admire you for it.. but respect the rights of those who would like to visit/ support their families in cuba..

Ah! THE EMBARGO!
As someone who has bought ANYTHING he pleases in Cuba from Coca-Cola to Moet to Seiko watches (with DOLLARS OF COURSE) I believe there is NO fucking embargo. There is a LACK of CASH!
Now, why wont items purchased in other countries are NOT made available to Cubans. How do you reconcile this with “lifting the “embargo” will help the Cuban People?”
If a Cuban can not walk into the FIAT dealership right on the Malecon and buy a second hand Fiat , how is the embargo responsible for that bit of inequity ?
If a Cuban citizen may not buy or rent cellular phone services EVEN if paid in dollars , how is that a consequence of this “embargo”?
The system is there (must have bought it from someone) , the phones are there (pretty nice ones actually) SOME Cubans have the USD$$$ , but the apartheid continues.
Can any of you “LIFT THE EMBARGO” advocates guarantee that anything bought on credit from the USA will see its way through to the people.?
No you CAN NOT !
As I was in La Habana a ship FULL of American chickens had docked at Habana Bay within 3 days the stench was unbearable!.. A Little miscalculation on the part of KaSStro and Co. There was NO refrigeration in La Habana and the USA ships HAD to get moving! So to the dismay of a government who is used to having it all done THEIR way the ship just unloaded the cargo and let the Cubans deal with it as well as they could Result .. One million ROTTEN CHICKENS which SOME actually made it to market and food poisoned a few people.

In a country where the government decides what you eat and when, it is not as if private merchants will be dealing with the USA. So why doesn’t Castro make that concession? Let the “embargo free” goods to reach the consumer directly. Do you REALLY think that will ever happen?

There are TRADE restrictions which demand full cash payment to USA companies. Now, let say this phantom embargo does exist? What POSSIBLE reason does the USA have to formally lift it?
What conciliatory gestures has Castro made to "Lift" this embargo?
You know the more people claim to LIFT this embargo the more I realize the stupidity of their ideals.
If a father sees his children starving because the local grocery store will not give him credit because he keeps throwing rocks at their window and confabulating with every neighbor to drive the store out of business. Whose fault is it the children are starving?
Wouldn’t just a SYMBOLIC gesture from KaSStro bring this matter to an end?
But no, it has to be done HIS way, under HIS terms and when HE wants it.
MY frustration is that ANYTHING is being sold to Cuba AT ALL!
The USA the is 4th largest trading partner with the USA, HELL of a fucking embargo.
Cubans are eating rice and beans because of USA growers. They are about to run out of sugar because they have not paid Brazil for their last shipments. You know I REALLY do NOT want some USA exporter getting stupid and selling 30 million USD of goods to KaSStro just to get a OOPS! Sorry don’t have the cash.
So you “anti embargo” “what a load of inarticulate drivel” pundits , go get some answers that make sense to the CUBAN people ! Then come back and show us AGAIN what a bunch of idiots you are.

KillCastro,

I agree with you 100% on the...ahem..."embargo".

Anti-embargo folks should read your comments a second or third time until it sinks in.

It's the regime, stupid (no offense meant) ;)

Bob, you are probably the single most misguided commenter I have had to address here at Babalú, and there have been a few. Not only do you start your response with an ad hominem attack -- hence my Blumenthal and McAuliffe reference; sorry if it went over your head -- you then compound it with the same nonsensical claptrap we’ve been hearing for years that comes straight from fidel’s propaganda machine. You may not want to be called “pro-castro” but the net effect of your statements make it appear as though you support the regime in its never-ending battle with the exile community. Words mean something, Bob. What you say says a lot about what you think. So here we go with my responses, point by point:

1. The embargo has failed because after 45 years, castro is still in power and the only victims are the Cuban people. That's probably the biggest example of failure in the history of the world!!! Tourism and business links would help Cubans because Cubans would have more contact with the outside world, just as tourism already does. Or are you suggesting that things were better in the periodo especial? If US companies had a stake in Cuba then the US Government could leverage that stake to demand political reforms. At present, they have no leverage.

The Beast of Birán is still in power after 45 years for one reason and one reason alone: the United States made a deal with the filthy soviets in 1962 and since then they have never made an effort to topple him. Period. That is the only reason. Everything else is gaslight. The embargo is the last remaining vestige of that cold war we are (were) waging. Whether the embargo has succeeded or failed is in the eye of the beholder. Not only do I think it works, I want it tightened even more.

All those contacts and business links didn’t help the Europeans who just last month screwed over by fidel. And they’re his buddies.

As for the US government having “leverage” in Cuba if they “had a stake” in Cuba, I think you are living in a thorazine fog, Bob. fidel wants us all dead. He hates us. He always did, and he always will. Have you ever read anything about him? How can anybody take your statement seriously when we have 46 years of evidence to the contrary? One thing is being “moderate” and “sensible”; it is quite another to enseñar el culo* to fidel.

2. If the embargo has no effect (as our leadership claims) and castro just uses it as an excuse for his own failings, then the smart thing to do would be to remove the excuse. That would expose castro . . . If you are so pro-embargo, then I suggest that stop sending money to your relatives and practice what you preach.

I’ll address your last point first: Since you do not know me from Adam can I assume your impertinent question was directed at me as representing the exile community? If so I cannot answer that. Personally, I do practice what I preach. Not only am I pro-embargo, I have never sent a dime to my one remaining relative on the island. I am against people sending money and I am against all travel to the island. So there. My position is consistent. The rest of the folks, we live in free society where people can do what they think best, even if it is the wrong thing to do.

Now, on your first point, exposing castro to what? More hard currency? More opportunities to steal the wealth of his citizens and use for his nefarious plans? My question was very specific and you did not answer it: How can you guarantee that lifting the embargo will change fidel's behavior. If the past is prologue, then I would have to say that it is idiotic to believe anything he says he will do. You are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I am not. And make no mistake, Bob: fidel is the ONLY arbiter of what goes on on the island. Nobody else. He does not call himself the máximo lider for nothing.

3. Free trade is a matter for the companies that wish to trade. It's their risk, just like free trade is anywhere. If they don't think it worth the risk, they won't trade. Simple.

Really? Are you really this naïve? And when these so-called free traders go to the Exim Bank, or negotiate with their congressmen and senators, you think they’d be fool enough not to get payment guarantees from the Feds? That money comes from us, you know. Please. Don’t insult my intelligence.

4. There's no contradiction between being successful and being seen as extremists.

Huh?

5. CANF etc. You know who I am talking about. C'mon.

No, I don’t. That is why I asked the question. CANF is one of many exile organizations that have a voice, but I don’t consider them “my leaders.” Far form it. I do not belong to any of them. I think, I don’t follow blindly. So, I ask again, who are these evildoers here in Miami that have led the exiles down the primrose path?

6. Bombs planted in Cuban hotels, the airliner bomb, bombs and threats in Miami etc etc.

Name the Cuban Americans charged by the Feds in these crimes. If you want to make scurrilous allegations based on nothing more than castro-inspired innuendo, then either back them up, or shut the fuck up. You are insulting way too many people here in the community by making these allegations.

Now, rather than dwell too much on the past, we need to look to the future. The 1960's and that that generation is OVER. We need an enlightened leadership for the modern times. A leadership that deals with reality, rejects violence, supports democracy, and understands that change in Cuba must be led and supported by Cubans in Cuba.

Wow. That was moving.

My mom, and Val’s mom and dad are from the 60s generation. They have valuable lessons to give us. Should we just throw them and their opinions out? So who do you have in mind for this “enlightened leadership”? Give me a break, Bob. All of us know that the Cubans in Cuba will run their own affairs. You say that as though every exile has his bags packed and ready to go over there to take over. And most Cubans will tell you that the Constitution of 1940 would be a good start.

Let me ask the question again: WHAT VIOLENCE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT YOU WANT US TO REJECT? If you are talking about the possibility of military intervention by the US in Cuba at some point in the future, then I would be all for it. Otherwise, be more specific.

Until such time as we have such a leadership in place, we will continue to be perceived, rightly, as a BUNCH OF LOSERS. We can talk to ourselves all day and all night. We can convince the converted that we are right. But until we grow up and change our methods, we will NEVER convince anyone else.

I am very grown up, and I do live in the real world, Bob. It’s the world where fidel sinks a tug full women and children. The world where he shoots down unarmed civilian aircraft in international airspace. The world where he begs Khrushchev to press the button to launch the missiles. The world where Oscar Elias Biscet is in four-foot by six-foot cell. That is the real world, Bob, not that Willy Wonka fantasy of yours.

If you feel a special need for people to be convinced that your point of view is right, and you have compromised that point of view to be moderate, then you have already lost. Moderation is not what wins victories against tyrants like fidel. Steadfastness in the face of adversity does. My hero Winston Churchill never, ever, gave up, and he never wavered, when he believed in a cause. Neither do I.

As for the “loser” comment, you may perceive yourself as a loser but I don’t have that perception about myself at all.

You can call me pro-castro if you like.

OK, you are pro-castro.

But all I've done is pointed out the obvious truth that you are too scared to confront. The policy has been an UNMITIGATED DISASTER. Grow up. Get real. Stop sticking your head in the sand and face reality. It is YOU who is objectively pro-castro, because everything you do and have done for 45 years has played right into his hands. With enemies like you, what use has castro for friends?

Your “truth” is not obvious. Far from it. Your “truth” consists of nothing more than old empty platitudes and propaganda straight from the island. That is all I am hearing. What I am scared to confront is a future where opinions like yours are the norm and what is right is thrown in the garbage for what is expedient, “moderate” and “sensible.” As for me being pro-castro, I think what we have here is a classic example of what is known in psychology as “projection.”

---

* enseñar el culo is a Cubanism/vulgarism that implies that you will pull your pants down and take it you-know-where.

George,

See what you started?

The whole issue of the Cuban community being one voice or several dissonant voices is something that is important and needs to be addressed. Your post and Val's earlier KillCastro post inspired me to make a post of my own on 26th Parallel today.

I'll try to directly answer some of your original questions and points that others have brought up at some point today.

:-)

Here are my answers:

1) Lifting the embargo won't do squat to improve the lives of everyday Cubans. My basis for this is "what embargo". I won't rehash all the stats about the $400 million + that Cuban Americans send to the island and the trade that Cuba enjoys with the rest of the world, all with no tangible improvement in the lives of ordinary Cubans with limited access to $$$

2) The embargo is THE most overrated aspect of US/Cuba relations. If it is lifted, a lot of lefties will be in line waiting to remind us crazy emotional Miami Mafiosi how "wrong" we were.

3) This is the only reason we need to justify the embargo, no matter how flawed it is.

4) A lot of it is jealousy. A lot of it is that we don't fit the subservient immigrant mold. We are bold, aggressive, take chances, and play the game the good ol' fashioned American way...we EAHHHHHRN it. That rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

5) What exile leadership? Are they referring to our representatives in Congress? As far as I know, there is no official exile leader, just lots of groups with different opinions and beliefs. Some are more powerful than others, those may be the "leaders" Bob is referring to. A lot of people (Bob, etc.) hold grudges against the perceived leadership because they may not represent their own views. If that's the case, there are lots of other moderate and liberal Cuban exile groups they can join. They're not hard to find. We don't ban, outlaw, or repress moderates and liberals Cuban groups in the US. Wait...I'm sure "they'll" try to come up with a bogus example.

6) Can't think of any.

a fidel lo unico que lo va a tumbar es un balazo en la cabeza a el y a todos los cumunistas que lo rodean y tienen las manos manchadas de sangre y tenemos que hacerlo nosotros los cubanos exiliados sin la ayuda de estados unidos porque a ellos nunca le ha importado cuba realmente
ademas todo el mundo sabe que fidel no tiene embargo ninguno y el que diga lo contrario es un comemierda o cuminista con respeto de todos .
lo unico que va a traer la libertad son las balas caballero y el resto es BULLSHIT.

The same useful idiots who attacked Ronald Reagan for opposing tha South Africa embargo are demanding the end of the Cuban embargo.

By removing what's left of the Embargo, the Miami "terrorist" could conduct economic warfare legally. And we could buy, "win" the hearts and minds of the top people on the island, the rest will follow.

George –
Sparks must be shooting outta Bob’s ass right now.
What GOD DAM unequivocal presentation of facts.
And you only used FUCK once!
I GOTTA learn how to do that.!
Bro – hats off to you.
Just to add a bit to this , NOT ONE Cuban in Cuba believe there is an embargo, even ñangars will ask you “what embargo”
Now, the absolute and totally obvious reply to a USA government saying “Ok ya prick , here no economical sanctions” Will be a MASSIVE concentration on el Malecon in front of the interest sections accusing the USA of having bankrupt the island for 46 years and that the USA OWES Cuba 95 quazillion dollars in lost revenues, and THAT will be the next cultist line…
The one thing I TRULY do not understand about ANYONE who is in the USA who is a Cuban and who feels the USA is being unfair with Castro is .. why doesn’t the MOTHERFUCKER LEAVE?! There problem solved? Kids will eat again. Wouldn’t that be what a GOOD father would do?

For Bob and Daniel:

¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡Coño aseres esta bueno ya!!!!!!!!

Songuacassal, LOL!

We don't have the combat power to defeat radical Islamism in the same way we defeated Nazi Germany. Radical Islamism thrives on being the underdog. But I think it can be defeated in the same way that Communism was defeated: wallop it with Satellite TV, Fax machines, and the internet age, push it until it eats its own young, and force it to deny reality until it is thoroughly discredited with its own people on its own turf."
CounterCoulumn

But what would these fools know about anything.

This blog is like a mad religious cult: Very convincing to their own members, completely off putting to everyone else.

You're still fighting the good old fight from the 60's. But time has moved on, George. The terrain on which you fight is different today. A smart guy works that out and acts accordingly. A fool continues with a failed strategy.

Cubans in Cuba want change. But they don't want the United States or the exiles to replace Castro as top dog. They have mixed feelings about Fidel and his legacy. They wish to preserve SOME aspects of the present system whilst moving towards a democratic political model. They see you (i.e. the extremists in Miami) as part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Perhaps it's difficult for you to face reality. Perhaps you have never returned to Cuba since your parents left, so your views are locked into a time warp that has grown more bitter with each passing year. It's the fate of exiles the world over.

Whatever the cause, you have painted yourself into a corner. Your words no longer chime with the situation on the island or with modern day America - but you're too stubborn to admit it. 45 years of failure is 45 years of failure. There's no getting away from that. We need, no, we DEMAND, a different approach. An approach that can unite not divide, that is moderate not extreme, and that inspires people to see to justice of our cause.

Let us hold aloft the flag of Cuba and the dream of Jose Marti for an independent and democratic state!

Let us reject extremism and terrorism from whomever practices it!

Let us support the good works of the Church in Havana and of the Holy Father!

Long live Oswald Paya and true face of freedom!

Viva Liberty!

Bob, I could not make my argument any better about the dialogueros and their misguided attempt to work with the monster than you just did. In one fell swoop, regime-style, you managed to change the subject from the ideas and resort to an ad hominem attack: you insulted Val, the readers of BabaluBlog, and the writers who contribute here; and you conveniently wrapped yourself around the Paya movement (one I have never trusted since he is not in prison, and hence a tool of the regime), and the Church.

You are a shameless collaborator, no better than Pétain, complicit with the crimes of the regime. People like you are the reason Cuba is still not free. You buy into the argument that moderation is the key while the regime continues to imprison and stifle any dissent that is not pre-approved.

And, as icing on the cake, you still didn't answer the questions! (Which I am not surprised at since you are not a thinker, just a parrot spewing propaganda.)

Long live Biscet! ¡Ese si es un hombre de principios!

You and your ilk make me sick.

Bob,

Moderation is fine and well, but how about demanding some moderation from castro? How exactly do you propose we dialogue with castro if he's not willing to move ONE INCH towards democracy and fairness? Let us hear your enlightened response to that.

You didn't mention the other dissidents. You know, the ones Paya doesn't like? The ones who held that meeting last month? They are demanding that the regime move towards democracy, not work and dialogue with them as Paya desires. I respect Paya's desire for a free Cuba, but don't agree with his approach. That's the whole point of our arguments here. If you don't get it by now, then we'll just have to leave it at that.

Who here has said anything about Cuban exiles taking over as top dog after castro?

"Extremists" in Miami are part of the problem? I guess $400 million a year in cash to relatives on the island is a big problem indeed.

Of course, you're smarter than us mad cultists who are perpetually stuck in a time warp. Thanks for the back slap, buddy. You've shown your true colors.

Is this conversation still going on? For Crissakes! Someone hand me some earplugs!

although to most here, the 'source' is probably discounted as a 'fidel mouth piece' and some fringe elements may even say he actually owns it, the (miami) new times had a piece once on bombings/ violence in the cuban exile community/ world.. while most have never been solved and could very well have been executed by castro agents sent to disgrace the exile community, there are others that we cannot "block the sun with our thumbs" and say they are unrelated TO THE EXTREME FACTIONS of the miami exile community.. again, the problem is that when these things happen there is no outcry from the MAJORITY of those who oppose such tactics..

1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a
Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal
agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind
"singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires
police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that
doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables
home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine
exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile
power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he
publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan José Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and
physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release
of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter,
which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of
relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba,
attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of
relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group
Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist
activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one
of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban
political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist
Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez
is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the
Lincoln-Martí private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to
Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown
Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations with
Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction of
paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of a
conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in
protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted
travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to
Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art
and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle
Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited
Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for
Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami
Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are
defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have
created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles
physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo.
Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner
Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to
look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from
expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami
exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio
promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce
acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her
videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of
Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba
physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles
arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding
concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following
its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during
performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding
performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban
singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van
leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding
performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin,
protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban
Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before
police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk
show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send
the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby
exile crowd before police come to rescue.

so whats your point daniel?

again, you have a penchant for criticizing the exile community, which in certain cases is warranted, but you fail to criticize the castro regime with the same zeal.

Shall I list all the terrorist act perpetuated by the castro regime? Shall I list all those people that have died as a result of fidel castro?

Por favor man. dejate de cuento chino.