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It amazes me how wingers defend the indefensible by saying, in effect, "we might be bad, but at least we aren't XXX."

You people act like you stopped your moral development in kindergarten.

Oh, and regrding AI's work on Cuba" See this.

If you go to http://www.amnesty.org and type in Cuba in the search box, you will get 25 hits.

Amnesty International has a long history of pointing out the short comings of the Cuban justice system.

JRI,

Please forgive my not being a moral relativist. It is plainly obvious to me that we are dealing with two incredibly polar opposite situations. First, we have prisoners in Gitmo who were captured killing and attempting to kill US troops, and who would surely not shed a tear at the death of thousands of Americans, while we have prisoners of conscience rotting away on the other side of the fence under incredibly inhumane and deplorable conditions simply because they owned typewriters and wrote their opinions.

You can attempt to justify your fake indignation all you want. It is ridiculous to compare the treatment of US prisoners to Cuban prisoners. Absolutely ridiculous.

And I challenge you to go through every single AI- Cuba document, as I have already done, and find the word "gulag" in reference to what can only be considered a gulag. AI does themselves an incredible disservice, moreover a disservice to the fight for human rights, with their blatant and wanton anti-American bias and by not applying the same standards to ALL violations of human rights.

Philip,

Again, AI could have easily brought about much attention to the Cuban problem had they used the same justification for the use of the word gulag as they did with the Gitmo situation.

Yet they didnt. Ask yourself why.

Amnesty Intetnational published a report on Cuban abuse of prisoners of conscience as reciently as March 18th. Here's the back link: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005
It takes about 6 months to a year to complete an AI report because they are thorough and even handed. It isn't really fair to complain that they havent reported on a situation that's less than 2 months old when they worked on the Gitmo report for over two years.
Dick Cheny quoted AI human rights reports twice that I know of in making the case to invade Iraq and once prior to invading Afghanistan.
So, please drop this "there picking on us because they hate America" crap. AI isn't biased and they have a great deal more credibility right now than the Bush administration, or I might add, any blogger.

My mistake. The backlink in the post above:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005
mentions Victor Arroyo by name. as well as giving his sentence and detailing some of the abuses he has been subjected to. So the original post was entirely wrong in both attitude and content.
In future Val Prieto may want to check his facts before shooting off his mouth.

IaintBacchus,

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiera ver. There is no blind man worse than one who refuses to see.

I have cited Amnesty International's many reports on the Cuban Human Rights violations many times here on this blog. Starting back in 2003 when the 75 dissident were rounded up and encarcerated for reasons obviously beyond your understanding.

However, the use of the word "gulag" and all of its accompanying connotations and publicity, has never, NOT ONCE, been used in reference to fidel castro's treatment of ideological prisoners. Ideological prisoners. Take that one in and try to understand it.

An please, dont cite a timeline of 2 years in Gitmo and yadayadayada. Cuba has had prisoners of conscience FOR DECADES and AI has been, compared to their flagrant coverage of Gitmo, moot.

If there is anything even remotely resembling a gulag in this hemisphere, its in Cuba alright, but it isnt run by Americans.

So you see, the original post was ENTIRELY in context and ENTIRELY correct in its attitude. And, I might add, Mr. IaintBacchus, that you certainly have some gall coming to my blog and telling me to check my facts before "shooting off my mouth."

You need to check yourself here, son. As the one with reading comprehension problems is you. And you are, in effect, the only one shooting off his mouth. And in a most disrespectful manner I might add.

Who are these trolls?

Hey, IaintBacchus, I have a bulletin for you: anybody that compares Gitmo with the Soviet Gulag is either (1) attempting to subvert the United States in its war on terror by comparing it to the most bloodthirsty regime in the history of the planet, or (2) an historical ignoramus of Jupiter-sized proportions. Take your pick as to where you fall.

If you truly believe that an AI, an organization who ignored the crimes and evils of the Communist bloc for decades, while condemning every piss-ant right-wing regime, is an "unbiased" source of information, then there is no hope for you.

I posted this on this blog several weeks ago. I witnessed this, so it is not second-hand:

Many years ago (1986 or 87) I was attending the New Music Seminar in New York City. One of the seminars being held for the attendees was sponsored and produced by Amnesty International. Now remember that this was during the Reagan years and we were (as we are today) the evil, evil influence in the world.

The president of Amnesty gave his talk and mentioned just about every right-wing dictatorship in the world. Not surprisingly, he neglected to mention any communist regimes and what they did. I had my hand up to call his attention to Cuba, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, the USSR, Red China, et al, when another attendee (with a Slavic accent) made the same point. I've never forgotten the look on this guy's face when faced with the question of the political prisoners of the left. It was an instructive lesson for me; I will not donate or aid an organization that calls Guantanamo a "gulag" while they have systematically ignored castro's real gulags for decades.

They are hypocrites and deceivers of the first rank.

Now, go back into your room, turn on the lights, and start rereading all your John Kerry and Howard Dean campaign literature again, so you'll feel better about yourself.

Not only is AI biased, and they ain't leaning right, but they are damn near retarded these days.

I am curious what is 'indefensible' to this moron. Is it that we didn't summarily execute those caught on the battlefield out of uniform? Perhaps it's that some can still recognize true tyranny from fake, politically motivated, leftist outrage. Either way, I thank G-d everyday that these fools aren't running the country these days.

Defense Guy, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is there not a rule of war that states that combatants, not wearing recognizable uniforms on the battlefield, can be treated as spies and are subject to summary trial and execution on the battlefield?

Let's cut to the chase here, friends.
What the Cubans have been doing is wrong. Dead Wrong. Horribly wrong. There is no excuse for what they have been doing.
What the Americans have been doing is wrong. Dead Wrong. Horribly wrong. No matter what you want to call the facilities it takes place at, it's wrong.
We're the good guys. We don't do that. WE DON'T DO THAT!
If you do that you aren't a good guy. Piss on your moral relativism - the ends do not justify the means. If we have to resort to torture in order to survive, then it's better not to survive. Death before Dishonor.

James, does that apply to the Marines on Iwo and Okinawa who shot Japanese POWs because they did not have the facilities to house them?

Who cares what it is called? The problem is that it is torture. "A rose by any other name would smell as..."erm. Gulag may be strong language, but the FBI, Bush's FBI, reported that prisoners were forced to lie in their own excrement while chained and deprived of sleep, subjected to alternating temperature extremes, etc. It shouldn't matter if they flew one of the planes on 9/11, torture is torture and they should be handed their just desserts properly.

The only issue here is do you or do you not support the torture of prisoners? If you do support torture of enemies, then you are in fact the seditious party since one reason for our removal of Saddam, an enemy of America, was for his policy of torture. In fact, that has been a primary reason cited recently since it was discovered that no WMD existed in Iraq. Saddam tortured those he considered his enemies, and he should be convicted for those crimes. If America tortures its enemies, someone should answer for that as well.

As for the ridiculous argument about not wearing recognizable uniforms: are we going to use one crime to justify committing atrocities ourselves, or will we hold ourselves to a higher standard in order to be the beacon of freedom and shining example we would like America to be?

Again, are you for torture or against it? Geez, and I thought liberals were the moral relativists.

James,

Whatever wrongdoings on behalf of the Americans will most assuredly be investigated and if confirmed you know there will be some sort of punishment or another.

That said, I would not classify being questioned by a woman as torture. I would not classify having to listen to Christina Aguilera as torture(ok, maybe I would, but still), I would not classify mishandling of the Koran as torture. or even making a prisoner pee on himslef.

Alot of people complain that we are no more secure today as we were pre 9/11, but at the same time these same people whine about allegation of "abuse" (if it could be called that at all) at Gitmo. Well, what are we supposed to do? Not question them? Not interrogate them strongly?

Does anyone thinmk that these prisoners are going to give us information if we just ask nicely and promise them some virgins?

Its not about taking the moral high road or moral relativism. Its about the misperception, via AI, on the reality of the situation.

James, You've got to be kidding. You would rather see America destroyed her citizens dead than possibly allow some rough treatment of a terrorist who wouldn't flinch beheading you or those you love? God help us.

Where the FUCK do they come out with these numbers the "TROLLetarians"
AI hasn’t had time to thoroughly document the Cuban situation?
What the hell kind of Peyota high is you assholes on?
The 2005 report on the Cuba "situation" is 395 words long MOSTLY filled with semi excuses as to how things have NOT gotten worst. They have the utter audacity to point out 3 prisoners were realeased for health reasons and 2 were moved closer to home. Now, WHY in hell aren’t ALL of them at home, better yet WHY are they in jail ? Cause they dare do what you 3 idiots just did?. Now ain’t that just stupid on YOUR part.
Now the report on the Guantanamo situation is 3,000+ words long ! THREE FUCKING THOUSAND .. and you know what that is you sore loosing democrat/left/pseudo/intellectual Bush hating trolls?
Because the situation in Guantanamo is a LOT easier to document and gets them a LOT more contributions from nuts like you.
After 46 years they figure, well Castro ain’t gonna change why keep beating the same horse to death AH but the Guantanamo issue is FRESH , it will keep us in the news and THAT produces contributions.. IT IS CALED MARKETING
AI is just a money making, publicity hungry bunch of businessmen with an agenda. Not that I begrudge anyone making money after all it IS a capitalist system , but I DO begrudge their utter hypocrisy that so easily permeates you less that adequate intellect and produces dribble as the one we just read.

Torture is torture?

Sorry, ervington, that doesnt quite cut it. You certainly cant equate a man having electrified refrigerator coils wrapped around his amrs 24/7 that a guy being made to lie on his own feces or having to hear loud music.

And you certainly cant compare the treatment of Cuban prisoners in Cuba to prisoners at Gitmo. There is absolutely no way to do that without being disingenous.

"Gulag" because it's an international series of prisons of varying levels of torture, including sending prisoners to other countries where we know they will be brutally treated. GITMO alone is not a gulag, it is part of the gulag.

When you start a war for righteousness, you'd better be prepared to be righteous. When you accuse your enemy of torture you'd better not torture him when you get the chance. If your enemy's refusal to follow international law is part of your justification for war, you'd better be prepared to support and follow international law.

There are laws for dealing with criminals, there are laws for dealing with prisoners of war.

Funny, I thought the war started on 9/11/2001. they sure treated the civilians civilly then, didnt they?

Sheesh.

For the record, I am against refrigerator coils wrapped around arms, too. And forcing someone to stand on a box with a hood on while holding what he is told are live wires. And any form of torture. For the sake of argument, I'll agree, some torture is worse than others. However, all torture is wrong. And whether or not AI has reported on torture in other countries or not has nothing to do with the fact, facts reported on by our own FBI as well, that America is torturing its prisoners. A very simple solution to this whole argument is for America simply not to torture its prisoners.

This is like arguing with a police officer that you should not have gotten a ticket for going 5 over since someone passed you going 10 over at the same time. Just because someone was speeding worse than you doesn't mean you were not speeding. If you weren't speeding, the officer would have no reason to ticket you and could then go after the worse speeder. Just because someone else is torturing worse than we are (whatever that means) does not make us innocent. So complain about the police officer who pulled you over and his bias all you want, but you were still breaking the law.

Are you for torture or against it? If you don't commit unethical acts, you will not be cited for them.

Ervington,

First, I simply will not agree that the instances displyed in the FBI report or in AI's Press release (they didnt, after all, have access to Gitmo) can be constituted as torture. Torture is the inflciting of severe or intense pain.

Heck, these instances strike me as nothing more serious than what a plebe goes through for a frat at a college hazing.

Second, the status of the detainees at Gitmo under the Geneva Convention is that of an unlawful combatant. Technically speaking, the US could have disposed of them right there on the battlefield with a bullet. Instead, they house them in air conditioned buildings, give them a mat, a cap and a Koran, call for and allow them to pray five times a day, feed them better than they feed the US armed forces, have lowered their sinks so that they may wash their feet before prayers and a whole slew of other niceties.

this is "torture"?

Please man, this conversation is getting old already. Its absurd to equate one to another and your speeding example does not apply here. they are simply not being tortured.

Amnesty International is incorrect in their choice of nouns to describe Gitmo (although, as usual, righties don't claim the substance of the criticism is incorrect, only the title), and they detract from their claims with their choice of words. When people of one ethnicity are rounded up and help without charge on the suspicion that they may have knowledge of illegal activities simply because of that ethnicity, the correct description is not "gulag", it is "concentration camp".

Rey,

Bullshit, man. Perhaps you have forgotten that we are at war, no? And that these detainees werent rounded up, but rather caught red-handed killing or attempting to kill OUR guys.

Why is it that you lefties refuse to ackowledge that fact that the US is in fact at war?

We are NOT at war.

If we were, EVERYONE would have to make sacrafices. Not just those in uniform/ battle.

You want to see a war? Look at WWII, the battlke against tyranny.
Gas rationing, scrap metal drives, paper drives, massive enlistment by civilaians, etc.

Tax breaks for the richest 1%?
$8.8B in funds "lost" and we won't even look for it?
No bid contracts and "war profiteering" for those closest to the administration?

Sorry, this is not a "REAL" war!!

By the way, you can put my 8-year old niece in prison and call her a terrorist too. It doesn't mean she is one.

Val,

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) you personally do not get to decide what is and isn't torture; international law determines that. Whether something seems like torture or like a day at the park to you is irrelevant. What matters is international policies and precedents for what constitutes torture. "Severe or Intense Pain" might actually be preferrable to some over lying cold in their own feces and not being allowed to sleep, so we can't really let your personal preference and whims as to which you would prefer determine our policies.

Thank you for repeating the talking about about college hazing, I guess. Those words ring hollow since college pledges choose to undergo hazing while our prisoners are held and tortured against their will. Furthermore, hazing is no longer necessarily legal. I imagine if a frat were found forcing its pledges to be chained for 24 hours at a time and to lie in their own excrement, they might receive disciplinary action...but again, irrelevant since pledges choose freely to go through that process.

On your second point: there may be a few "unlawful combatants" at Gitmo, but there are also many who are simply suspected enemy combatants. So many of these people could actually be innocent. In fact, there have been many detainees released because they were found innocent or "no longer a threat." Is torturing them ok?

And even assuming we could have shot them on the field of war, we did not. Once we take them prisoner they are entitled to certain rights as POWs. Why? Because that way when our men are taken as POWs they can receive ethical treatment as well. Also, because treating people who are living ethically is the morally right thing to do. So what soldiers "could have" done is irrelevant. We are talking about what they chose to do.

As for the cushy life of a prisoner at Gitmo that you describe, that is again off the subject. We are talking about the abuses and torture that have been documented by multiple agencies, including the FBI which is overseen by the Bush administration. Your changing the subject is what makes this a tiring conversation.

Why are you so intent on excusing the mistreatment of actual people? Their assumed or even real criminal status does not mean they have forfeited their personhood and right to ethical treatment under internationally agreed upon standards.

As for your final comment that my speeding example does not apply, I will repeat: you do not personally decide what torture is. International law does. Also, I was using that example to address what I thought you were wanting to talk about, which is AI's role in this whole thing. You were arguing that AI is biased and should be talking about the worse torture going on elsewhere. And while I agree, and comments have shown that they are, you for some reason want to draw lines in the sand about degrees of torture and use those arbitrary lines to decide who AI should be reporting on. I could easily argue that 5 over is not a serious offense, that very few people are injured until someone is going at least 7 over, and 5 over is nothing more than an accidental lapse of attentiveness while 10 over represents predetermined and conscious intent to break the law, knowingly endangering others. But a speed limit is a speed limit, and I don't determine speed limits. The law does.

So I ask again; are you for torture or against it? People have been tortured at Gitmo. Many have been treated well. Many may have deserved to die on the field of combat. But some (I won't even say many) have been tortured, and this torture has been documented. The definition of torture is not yours to determine. So do you or do you not support the torture of prisoners of America? I'm not asking you to agree that anyone is innocent, I'm not asking you to agree that Gitmo should be shut down, I'm not askign you to agree that most prisoners are being treated very well at Gitmo. I'm asking you if you think torture is a good policy for America to have. Or will you continue to defend torture and draw attention away from it by focusing on unrelated issues and circumstances? America should be the shining example of freedom and human rights for the world while eradicating it from the rest of the world. If it is good to end torture in other places, is it not also good to end it on our own watch? The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not particularily happy about the reported incidents that happened in Gitmo. But it's truly outrageous and ridiculous to compare Koran flushings and Aguilera music with anything that has been going on in Cuban prisons for 45 frigging years now.
The inmates of Combinado del Este or Boniato would think they'd landed in a Cayo Coco resort if you transferred them to Gitmo.
Cuban prisons are nonstop torture, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They are nightmares you can't even imagine. Dante could not have dreamt up a worse hell.
Read what Armando Valladares (a poet, not a terrorist) had to endure for more than 20 years. Read up on Reinaldo Arenas. Look at the cell of Dr Biscet.
If you call Gitmo GULag and torture, the word torture loses every meaning. And that would be the greatest insult to people who REALLY endured it, often for decades.

Val,

No.

You're just incorrect. The people in Gitmo, in large numbers, are guilty of nothing more than affiliation with bad company. In some cases, they're even victims of mistaken identity. There are certainly some terrorists in there. There are just as certainly people in there who are not affiliated with terrorism in no way. The governmnent has as much as admitted this by releasing some. The point is, it's simply unconstitutional to hold US citizens in there without a fair and speedy trial. Charge 'em with something, convict 'em if they're guilty.

We were at war in the '40's, too, and it was just as wrong to round up Japanese Americans. I do admit I was incorrect in the use of "concentration camp", that was stupid of me to compare with Gitmo; what I meant was "internment camp", and I apologize for using the wrong term.

Rey, there are no US citizens in Gitmo. And yes, some may only have loose affiliations with terrorism, and some may be there by error. They will be released.
But terrorists are not prisoners of war, they are an untolerable danger to the public.
I hope nobody released from Gitmo ever blows up the Sears Tower. The same people who yell "torture" now would sing a different tune.
Whar do you do with people who carry a contagious mortal disease? You isolate them. There is no other way.
Yes I wish we wouldn't need Gitmo. If you have a better idea about what do with people who want to destroy us, please tell me.

Robert,

"we are not at war"

All evidence to the contrary. tell that to those men an women serving overseas.

And bringing in your daughter into this converstaion is absurd. of course, perhaps you would feel differently about this whole matter if she had been in the WTC on 9/11?

Ervington,

I guess you missed the part where I stated, in no uncertain terms "Whatever wrongdoings on behalf of the Americans will most assuredly be investigated and if confirmed you know there will be some sort of punishment or another."

That said, I dont condone torture, but I also call a spade a spade. Just as you have asked that I not resort to lumping together all the Gitmo prisoners as enemy combatants, then I ask you to not lump together isolated incidents as the status quo for treatment of detainess. You know perfectly well that these few incidents of alleged "torture" are mostly all pomp and circumstance and definitely not the norm.

Because that way when our men are taken as POWs they can receive ethical treatment as well.

I dont know what planet you have been living on, but you know this to be a completely inane comment, as the televised beheading have proven too many times.

One thing is for sure, the content and meaning of my original post has been completely proven here. 100% proven. Here we have an island whose people have endured decades of real torture and simultaneously the US has a few incidents of some pseudo interrogation techinques and folks like you prefer to waste our time and your eneries and your words on the latter. And the Cubans in jails for owning typewriters be damned.

What have you said here to help those Cubans living in agony, ervington? Where is it that you adressed the real problem I posed and not some shody grasping for straws hyperbole? What did you say about the real gulag? NOT A SINGLE DAMN THING.

And you insist on teaching ME about ethics and morals?

Bah. Take it somewhere else man, boilerplate arguments are too common to waste any more time on.

The central question is whether AI has, in fact, decried and documented Cuba's human rights abuses. It has. The criticism has been harsher on the U.S., in my estimation because 1) we don't have the same history of these abuses, 2) our number of these types of prisoners is far larger and 3) we consider ourselves champions of human rights more than Cuba does.

There's some have-it-both-ways reasoning going on here: "It's not a Gulag. But torture is totally ok. 9/11 gave us total liberty to do anything in reponse." If you're going to say it's ok to mistreat or torture the prisoners, it seems to me that we have to accept that comparisons to other regimes that condone torture will be made and we yield the moral high ground. If we're willing to yield that high ground to win, our boys stop being the good guys and become a sports team that I'm rooting for because they're my guys. For some people that's good enough. It's not for me. I like being a force for good. I'd rather lose as one of the good guys than win as one of the bad guys.

Can you imagine the outrage - the OUTRAGE!!! - if these actions were being carried out by Americans?

Need I say anything else?

You know what is REALLY funny that all of those prisioners in GITMO could had been just blown to pieces in Iraq , and there would be no arguments, cause who would know?

Just pull a Kasstro on the world and the EU will be delighted to be your friend.

Again everyone forgets that the USA
Could've dropped bombs on IRAQ and turn the place into a LARGER desert. And who was going to complaint?
What , Russia was going to declare war , China was going to declare war ? GET SERIOUS

The USA could have planted all the weapons of mass destructions they wanted and have the POLES find them. End of liberal bullshit complaining
Could've killed all of those "prisoners" and none of you bleeding hearts pacifist liberals would've known SHIT.
The difernce is that you happen to live in a FREE and VERY humanitarian country , which allows this kind of discussion just because they chose to do things in the open.
I am amazed that we just did NOT opened a hole the size of the crater at the WTC towers bury these fuckers and call it a day.
Perhpas when the day comes when I forget the smell of DEATH in Manhattan for 15 days after 9/11 I will feel some compassion for a Koran being flushed down the toilet.

"I'd rather lose as one of the good guys than win as one of the bad guys."
God bless you sir and if that was the rest of the worlds attitude we would still be battling the japanese, or better yet we wouldve been an Brit colony !

Val,

Are you SURE my daughter is not a terrorist?

It sounds like you'd believe she was if she was in Gitmo.

Dont be ridiculous, Robert.

Here is a story, for all of the hand-wringing, teeth-gnashing, "good" guys that rail against our evil in Guantanamo, of someone doing something reprehensible that was necessary for victory in a larger cause.

In the early years of World War II, after the British had broken the German Enigma code, they were able to decode most all of the German communiqués that were sent regarding Luftwaffe, Wermacht, and Kriegsmarine operations. One of those communiqués clearly laid out a mission plan to bomb the city of Coventry in England. Winston Churchill was advised of this and was urged by his military leaders to notify the city's leaders to evacuate the population. Churchill refused to do so. He said that doing so would tip the Germans off that they had decoded Enigma, thereby risking the loss of a major advantage in the war against Hitler.

Now, the way I see this -- and how it relates to all of this liberal self-flagellation about Guantanamo -- is that those of you who want to be the "good" guys would have tipped off the city, and probably the Germans, depriving the Allied cause of valuable intelligence that helped them win the war. How many more allied soldiers would have been killed is, obviously, conjecture. But I can assure you that major victories against Hitler would not have happened, lengthening the war -– and the Holocaust. I'm afraid that would have been the wrong decision.

As "wrong" as it was to let the city of Coventry be bombed where men, women, and children were killed – by the Nazis, remember -- Churchill still did the right thing. In the end, with great assistance from the decoded Enigma communiqués, the Allies were able to win the war.

Now, apply that to today's war and what we have obtained from these folks at Gitmo (and wherever else we're holding these scumbags). These "poor prisoners" would slit your infidel throat, and the throats of your infidel children, as easily as they fornicate with goats. THEY HATE US AND WANT US DEAD BECAUSE WE ARE INFIDELS! Get it?

It's your choice: do you want your children to survive the inevitable war with this monstrous philosophy intact, and your children forcibly converted to Islam, made dhimmis, or worse? Do you want your children to live in a safer world, or do you want to be the “good guys” and perish? Do you want to appease your enemy, or do you want to make certain they do not threaten you or your way of life?

It’s your call.

Robert, the prisoners in Gitmo are there because we captured them in battle, not because they were in a sewing circle discussing the latest Ladies Home Journal. They were not combatants covered under the Geneva Convention, hence those rules do not apply. If you hand-wringers need any more information, I'll be happy to oblige.

There's two basic arguments here.

One is: what's being done to the GITMO detainess isn't really torture.

My response: We're not just talking about being forced to listen to music, or whatever. We're talking about people who have been been in US custody, and then been subjected to "strangulation, beatings, [and] placement of lit cigarettes into the detainees ear openings"...

Does that not sound like 'torture' to you?

The other argument is: it's okay to torture people at GITMO, if it gives us good information.

My respone: It's quite simple - torture does not produce reliable information. All it produces is someone telling the interrogator whatever the tortured person thinks they want to hear. They'll turn in someone they saw on the bus that day, just to get the pain to stop.

So, to sum up: a) we're torturing people. Just because other people do it, doesn't mean it's right for us to do it. Aren't we supposed to do better? To hold ourselves to a higher standard?

and b) we're not even getting good information that can save human lives, the only *possible* justification for torture. What good does that do us? Why, it means that we further abandon our ideals and soil our reputation among the rest of the world, for nothing.

Come on, just face it. The Bush administration has sold you a bill of goods. Stop buying it, and we can move forward and fix this mess.

OK, Jim. I'll throw it back in your court: what would you have us do with these illegal combatants?

Has anyone taken the FUCKING time to read the fucking post?

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Val, you're wasting your time. The trolletarians would rather talk about Guantanamo and how evil the American empire is, than talk about how Shamnesty International misses the boat on the real Gulags in Cuba.

Jim Beach,

If you are going to make a statement like:

We're talking about people who have been been in US custody, and then been subjected to "strangulation, beatings, [and] placement of lit cigarettes into the detainees ear openings"...

Please provide some back up, as first it's a rather harsh accusation and second you are implying that it is the standard for all detainees.

Come on, just face it. The Bush administration has sold you a bill of goods. Stop buying it, and we can move forward and fix this mess.

"This mess" is caused by self loathing, self centered Bush haters like you that can equate all the evils of the world on an american administration you dont particularly like.

Get a fucking grip, asswipe. The post had nothing to do with Gitmo. The word wasnt even fucking mentioned or implied.

Get over yourself, dude.

...and then, assholes like Dick Durbin, spew their bullshit on the Senate floor, when in the last 46 years I have not heard ONE Democratic senator denounce the real Gulag in Cuba. These people are more willing to criticize their own country on the straw-horse of Guantanamo, than denounce real abuses the likes of which Val posted today. They are nothing more or less than a leftist enabler of the regime (fidel's close asshole-buddies: Ted Kennedy, Chris Dodd, the aforementioned Dick Durbin, Barbara Boxer, and the rest, included).

Please, if you have any other explanations for this dichotomy, post it. We are more than willing to listen.

Boy, I can hear my echo in here. The moment you confront these dunderheads with some info, they scatter like scared little mice.

Val, at what point does it become morally imperative that we invade Cuba and liberate the island's population?

How can you sit by knowing this is happening while U.S. forces work, as you put it, on the other side of a fence on the island? How can you defend an administration that hasn't taken this action to oust a regime that does this to its own citizens in a nation where we already have forces stationed?

Are you calling for war or are you just providing cover for another administration that uses torture?

Shamanic, which Administration are you talking about? Kennedy who abandoned Brigade 2506 on the beaches and then did nothing else? Johnson who did nothing? Nixon who did nothing? Ford who did nothing? Carter who did nothing? Reagan who did nothing? Bush 41 who did nothing? Clinton who did everything who could to kiss fidel's ass? Bush 43 who has done nothing to date?

Sha,

Do you honestly think we Cuban-Americans are waiting for any US administration to go into Cuba? What with all you fidel castro apologist leftists in this country? All you guys that are soooooooooo quick to point out the "torture" in Gitmo and whine like little girls whove lost their Barbies while the real torture has been going on in Cuba for decades and nary a whimper from your side? Just alot of "fidel castro is bad but... at least he has free healthcare?" And Jimmy Carter traveling to Cuba and sticking his tongue up castros ass? And you Che wearing little sycophantic farts shouting viva la revolucion?

You think we Cuban-Americans expect any US administration, be they democrap or republican to commit political suicide over a bunch of BROWN PEPOPLE?

Please man, GET OVER YOURSELVES. I may be Cuban but I sure know alot more about the character of America than you do, son.

"And that these detainees werent rounded up, but rather caught red-handed killing or attempting to kill OUR guys."


No, not all of them. Some were, in fact, rounded up and remanded to Gitmo. And the ones you describe are by definition prisoners of war. It's fashionable in certain circles to piss on the Geneva Conventions, but we are still a signatory, and they do represent at least an attempt to rise above the least common denominator in abominable treatment of human beings. What is most disturbing is the attempt to place certain categories of people outside of ANY provisions for legal and human rights. It's not too many steps from there to the "gulag," regardless of whose gulag it is.

Alek,

Point taken. So, now what? Where do we go from here? How would you gather intelligence? How would you prevent some guy with links to Al Queada from killing MY family? Yes, MY family, not yours, because if you dont care enough about your family to be either prudent or pragmatic, or even be at least a little cautious, I would rather your responsibility lay in protecting mine.

Let's here some solutions, boys and girls, and wipe away the tears.

Sweet Jesus, people ... this seach took me all of fifteen seconds - AMNESTY REPORTS ON THIS SH!T ALL THE TIME, NUT BOYS!!!

Christ in Heaven, TRY ACTUALLY GOING to Amnesty Internationl (http://www.amnesty.org), type in "Cuba" in to the search engine, and click on "Go."

This just shows how much "conservatives" will do to prove their point - THEY WON'T DO ANYTHING AT ALL ... just throw out some "blah-didity-blah BS" and expect the public to lap it up.

HERE'S THE WHOLE LIST FOR YOU FROM AMNETY.ORG:

71 prisoners of conscience

1. Nelson Alberto Aguiar Ramírez, 59
Sentence: 13 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

2. Pedro Pablo Alvarez Ramos, 57
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Hospital of Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

3. Raúl Arencibia Fajardo, 41
Sentence: 3 years
Date of arrest: 6 December 2002
Home town: Havana city
Prison: 1580 Prison, Havana province

4. Pedro Argüelles Morán, 56
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: March 2003
Home town: Ciego de Avila city
Prison: Nieves Morejón Provincial Prison, Sancti Spiritus.

5. Víctor Rolando Arroyo Carmona, 53
Sentence: 26 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Pinar del Río
Prison: Guantánamo Provincial Prison, Guantánamo

6. Mijail Barzaga Lugo, 36
Sentence: 15 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Aguïca Prison, Matanzas province

7. Oscar Elías Biscet González, 43
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 6 December 2002
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

8. Marcelo Cano Rodríguez, 38
Sentence: 18 years
Date of arrest: 25 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Ariza Provincial Prison, Cienfuegos province

9. Francisco Chaviano González, 52
Sentence: 15 years
Date of arrest: 7 May 1994
Home town: Havana
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

10. Rafael Corrales Alonso, 36
Sentence: 5 years
Date of arrest: 28 February 2002
Home town: Havana City
Prison: Valle Grande Prison, Havana

11. Eduardo Díaz Fleitas, 51
Sentence: 21 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Pinar del Río
Prison: Kilo 5½ Prison, Camagüey province

12. Antonio Ramón Díaz Sánchez, 41
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Holguín Provincial Prison (Cuba Sí)

13. Alfredo Rodolfo Domínguez Batista, 43
Sentence: 14 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Puerto Padre, Las Tunas
Prison: Holguín Provincial Prison (Cuba Sí)

14. Alfredo Felipe Fuentes, 55
Sentence: 26 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Artemisa, Havana province
Prison: Guamajal Prison, Santa Clara, Villa Clara province.

15. Efrén Fernández Fernández, 54
Sentence: 12 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Guanajay Prison, Havana province

16. Juan Adolfo Fernández Sainz, 56
Sentence: 14 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Holguín Provincial Prison (Cuba Sí)

17. José Daniel Ferrer García, 33
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Santiago de Cuba
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

18. Luis Enrique Ferrer García, 30
Sentence: 28 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Puerto Padre, Las Tunas province
Prison: Carlos J. Finlay Hospital, Havana

19. Próspero Gaínza Agüero, 47
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Moa, Holguín province
Prison: Boniato Provincial Prison, Santiago de Cuba province

20. Miguel Galván Gutiérrez, 39
Sentence: 26 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Guines, Havana province
Prison: Agüica prison, municipality of Colón, Matanzas province

21. Julio César Gálvez Rodríguez, 59
Sentence: 15 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

22. José Luis García Paneque, 39
Sentence: 24 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Las Tunas
Prison: Hospital of Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

23. Ricardo Severino González Alfonso, 53
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Kilo 8 Provincial Prison, Camagüey province

24. Diosdado González Marrero, 42
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: El Roque, Perico, Matanzas province
Prison: Kilo 5½ Prison, Pinar del Río province

25. Léster González Pentón, 26
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Santa Clara city
Prison: Carlos J. Finlay Hospital, Havana

26. Alejandro González Raga, 46
Sentence: 14 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Camagüey
Prison: Kilo 7 Prison, Camagüey province

27. Jorge Luis González Tanquero, 33
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Las Tunas province
Prison: Las Mangas, Granma province

28. Leonel Grave de Peralta Almenares, 27
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Juan Antonio Mella, Santiago de Cuba province
Prison: Ciego de Avila Provincial Prison (known as "Canaleta")

29. Iván Hernández Carrillo, 33
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Colón, Matanzas province
Prison: Holguín Provincial Prison (Cuba Sí)

30. Normando Hernández González, 35
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 24 March 2003
Home town: Vertientes, Camagüey province
Prison: Abel Santamaría Hospital, Pinar del Río province

31. Juan Carlos Herrera Acosta, 38
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Guantánamo
Prison: Kilo 8 Prison, Camagüey province

32. Regis Iglesias Ramírez, 34
Sentence: 18 years
Date of arrest: 21 March 2003
Home town: Havana
Prison: Combinado del Este, Havana province

33. José Ubaldo Izquierdo Hernández, 37
Sentence: 6 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Güines, Havana province
Prison: Guanajay Prison, Havana province

34. Rolando Jiménez Posada, 33
Sentence: awaiting trial
Date of arrest: 25 April 2003
Home town: Nueva Gerona, Isla de la Juventud
Prison: Guayabo Prison, Isla de la Juventud

35. Reinaldo Miguel Labrada Peña, 41
Sentence: 6 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Las Tunas
Prison: Guantánamo Provincial Prison, Guantánamo

36. Librado Ricardo Linares García, 43
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Camajuaní, Villa Clara province
Prison: Ariza Prison, Cienfuegos province

37. Virgilio Marante Guelmes, age unknown
Sentence: 3 years
Date of arrest: 6 December 2002
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Melena 2 Prison, Havana province

38. Héctor Fernando Maseda Gutiérrez, 62
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana
Prison: Villa Clara Provincial Prison ("El Pre"), Villa Clara province

39. José Miguel Martínez Hernández, 40
Sentence: 13 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Quivicán, Havana province
Prison: Guanajay Prison, Havana province

40. Mario Enrique Mayo Hernández, 40
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Camagüey
Prison: Hospital of Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

41. Luis Milán Fernández, 35
Sentence: 13 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Santiago de Cuba
Prison: Hospital of Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

42. Rafael Millet Leyva, 34
Sentence: awaiting trial
Date of arrest: 21 March 2003
Home town: Nueva Gerona, Isla de la Juventud
Prison: El Guayabo Prison, Isla de la Juventud

43. Nelson Moliné Espino, 40
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: San Miguel del Padrón, Havana province
Prison: Kilo 5½ Prison, Pinar del Río province

44. Ángel Juan Moya Acosta, 40
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana
Prison: Carlos J. Finlay Hospital, Havana

45. Jesús Miguel Mustafá Felipe, 59
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 1 March 2003
Home town: Palma Soriano, Santiago de Cuba province
Prison: Ciego de Ávila Provincial Prison (known as "Canaleta")

46. Félix Navarro Rodríguez, 50
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Perico, Matanzas province
Prison: Guantánamo Provincial Prison, Guantánamo

47. Pablo Pacheco Avila, 34
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Ciego de Ávila
Prison: Morón Municipal Prison, Ciego de Avila province

48. Héctor Palacios Ruiz, 63
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: Havana
Prison: Hospital at Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

49. Arturo Pérez de Alejo Rodríguez, 53
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Manicaragua, Villa Clara province
Prison: Ariza Prison, Cienfuegos province

50. Omar Pernet Hernández, 57
Sentence: 25 years.
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Placeta, Villa Clara
Prison: Carlos J. Finlay Hospital, Havana

51. Horacio Julio Piña Borrego, 37
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Sandino, Pinar del Río province
Prison: Kilo 5½ Prison, Pinar del Río province

52. Fabio Prieto Llorente, 38
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Nueva Gerona, Isla de Pinos
Prison: Kilo 8 Prison, Camagüey province

53. Alfredo Manuel Pulido López, 43
Sentence: 14 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: La Mascota, Camagüey province
Prison: Kilo 7 Prison, Camagüey province

54. José Gabriel Ramón Castillo, 46
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Santiago de Cuba
Prison: Carlos J. Finlay Hospital, Havana

55. Arnaldo Ramos Lauzerique, 63
Sentence: 18 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Holguín Provincial Prison (Cuba Sí)

56. Ricardo Ramos Pereira, 33
Sentence: 4 years
Date of arrest: 28 February 2002
Home town: Havana
Prison: Combinado del Este Prison, Havana

57. Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez, 47
Sentence: 25 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Sancti Spíritus province
Prison: Nieves Morejón Prison, Sancti Spíritus province

58. Alexis Rodríguez Fernández, 34
Sentence: 15 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Palma Soriano, Santiago de Cuba province
Prison: Mar Verde, Santiago de Cuba province

59. Néstor Rodríguez Lobaina, 38
Sentence: 6 years and 6 months
Date of arrest: 2 March 2000
Home town: Baracoa, Guantánamo province
Prison: Paso de Cuba Prison, Guantánamo province

60. Omar Rodríguez Saludes, 39
Sentence: 27 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Agüica, Matanzas province

61. Omar Moisés Ruiz Hernández, 57
Sentence: 18 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Santa Clara city
Prison: Ciego de Avila Provincial Prison (called "Canaleta")

62. Claro Sánchez Altarriba, 51
Sentence: 15 years
Date of arrest: 19 March 2003
Home town: Santiago de Cuba
Prison: Guantánamo Provincial Prison, Guantánamo

63. José Enrique Santana Carreira, 29
Sentence: 4 years
Date of arrest: 28 February 2002
Home town: Havana
Prison: Valle Grande Prison, Havana

64. Ariel Sigler Amaya, 40
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Pedro Betancourt town, Matanzas province
Prison: Santa Clara Provincial Prison, Villa Clara province

65. Guido Sigler Amaya, 51
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Pedro Betancourt town, Matanzas province
Prison: Aguïca Prison, Matanzas province

66. Ricardo Silva Gual, 31
Sentence: 10 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Palma Soriano, Santiago de Cuba province
Prison: Boniato Prison, Santiago de Cuba province

67. Fidel Suárez Cruz, 34
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Pinar del Río province
Prison: Agüica Prison, Matanzas province

68. Manuel Ubals González, 35
Sentence: 20 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: Guantánamo province
Prison: Boniato Prison, Santiago de Cuba province

69. Héctor Raúl Valle Hernández, 36
Sentence: 12 years
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: San José de las Lajas, Havana province
Prison: Guanajay prison, Havana province

70. Antonio Augusto Villareal Acosta, 56
Sentence: 15 years.
Date of arrest: 18 March 2003
Home town: Villa Clara
Prison: Santa Clara Provincial Prison, Villa Clara province

71. Orlando Zapata Tamayo, 36
Sentence: 3 years
Date of arrest: 20 March 2003
Home town: Havana city
Prison: Quivicán Prison, Havana province

Val, first of all, you will find zero cover for Castro from me. When you execute journalists for reporting, I don't care how good the healthcare is. When you arrest people for reading, I don't care how good your schools are. Why you assume that I'm a closet Castro supporter is beyond me. As I explained on Simianbrain, I think it's both fitting and tragic that the only justice Castro is likely to see for his crimes will be in the next world.

Second, just so you fully understand the character of non-Cuban-Americans (if you'll pardon the extended hyphenization) such as myself, it's best if you don't address as me as "son" or "man", because I'm a woman.

Nice dodge on the question by the way. I'm going to take that as "No, I don't believe that the United States should invade Cuba to liberate it; I just want to provide cover for the U.S. administration that now employs torture and pretend that's a moral stand." Enjoy.

WOAH! 75 prisoners of conscience - nice uh? what a GREAT job of reporting the evil the utter hopelessness that is the Cuban situation . Actually in a 12 million people country 75 doesn’t sound so bad ... IF THAT WAS REALLY THE NUMBER YOU IDIOT!
Now *I* called AI this AM and got to talk to someone with some sense of reality and honesty , she says "well Cuba is a difficult situation because we really can not get enough information"
So ... the more control a tyrant a despot a dictator has over his people the less AI will do for the people of that country cause they "can not get in" ?
Well ain’t that a god damn bitch .. So what's the job babe? Do the easy job, report on what the USA government itself reports and then twist it so you can turn news into a SCANDAL that will fill your coffers with donations from Michael Moore?
Now listen to this piece of dribble again and LET IT SINK "
"THE CUBA SITUATION IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE GET SO LITTLE INFORMATION"
Same goes for the red Cross and the UN .. wouldn’t you THINK (if you could think) that THAT in itself would put Kasstro on TOP of the list of il Cappi de Tutti motherfuckers?
Wouldn’t AI just go ballistic that this prick will NOT let them go in and see the prisoners?
Now I just read the USA is inviting all of you naive lil peaceniks to go and visit Gitmo ( Ah how we Cubans wish Kasstro did that .. but hey he IS a difficult guy to deal with .. so lets not bother him , cause he may saiy bad things about us in one of his 4 hours tirades)
As far as torture....
Quick question..
If shoving a hot poker up one of those motherfuckers asses would’ve revealed the 9/11 plan ... what would YOU do ? Really honestly let me know . I want to know how one of you peace loving individuals would react.
Now , NOTICE ladies and gents (and I use the term loosely) there have been NO terrorist attacks within the USA , so maybe whatever torture HAS taken placed at GITMO has saved a few thousand Americans from being killed.
If that is the case BURN THEM ALL TO HELL!
And BTW you simpletons, that is how we WON WWII !

Ah for Christs sake,

You obviously failed to read these here comment, didnt you?

Let me ask you, where is YOUR OUTRAGE?

Sha,

Nice dodge on the question by the way. I'm going to take that as "No, I don't believe that the United States should invade Cuba to liberate it; I just want to provide cover for the U.S. administration that now employs torture and pretend that's a moral stand." Enjoy.

I answered you question quite succinctly. And I certainly do not appreciate your putting words in my mouth. Once again, you porve my point perfectly by even MENTIONING the US and Gitmo. Get it?

For Pete's sake.

WHERE O WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?