It's a real tragedy that an "innocent" bystander (at least of terror-related activities) was erroneously killed by the British police, but I say FUCK YOU, Brazil!
This is not the time to take the high road and bitch and moan about one of its nationals getting caught in the line of fire. This is war, and Brazil better choose which side it wants to stand up with. The country, and its leaders, should realize that, sooner rather than later, it will be *its* turn to face the Islamofascist music. And they are not going to be able to do the samba to it.
Of course with a leftist like Lula at the head of that corrupt bunch, it will never happen.
Meu Deus... it is truly o pais de futuro... e sempre lo sera...
Julio

And now the press and some other elments are fueling "protests" about this matter in Brazil. To me, his death is a suspicious death, not because the police shoot him in the head, that's what they're supposed to do with a suicide bomber, they are not supposed to shot the guy in the chest and make the bomb go off. What is suspicious is: what was this man doing in a cordoned off area. Why did he run? Why was wearing he a parka? Did he know anything at all about this terror plots? I presume that Scotland Yard have the answers that are not to be shared with the members of the public. The terrorists are to blame for this death, too. And this incident is going to be used for the Islamofascist cells already operating in South America to rally up their members and gain collaborators. Wait and see.

Yeah, this is RICH, coming from the same people who've deluded themselves into believing Santos-Dumont actually invented the airplane...yea, WRIGHT!

The Brits should just handle this the way they handle matters when things get tough: stiff upper lip, roll up sleeves, and do WHATEVER needs to be done, including a massive round-up and swift deportation of ALL illegals in Britain. And to hell with the immature tantrums of kakasstroffe-sympathizing 3rd world-wannabe-1st world types.

to clarify a few misrepresentations on vals rant

Brazil sets the pace by ignoring and abetting the depredations of the Hugo Chavez regime of Venezuela right on their border
WRONG numerous times, the brazilian army has escorted the venezuelan army OUT of brasil after training excercises have drifted into brasilian territory, they have dismantled training camps set up by the venzuelan army in brasilian territory, and have seized arms/shipments not only going into venezuela illegally, but to colombia for FARC as well..

the savagery of The Monster At Their Door, none other than fidel castro a short yacht ride away
WRONG AGAIN, after several party defections when the brasilian government failed to pass a resolution and draft a letter to cuba/castro condemming human rights violations and the arrest of raul rivero, the PT thought the better of it and lula in a PERSONAL meeting with castro mentioned it to him, saying that incidents like that would affect future relations between the two countries.. some time after that, some cuban doctors were expelled from the country, HOWEVER a small few that asked for assylum were granted it..

These two evil dictatorial scumbags have gotten a free pass from Brazil to violate as many human rights as they can manage, in castro's case, for more than 40 years. Not one peep out of Brazil
SEE REPLY ABOVE, and remember brasil had a dictatorship from 1964-1985, of course since it was a "rightist" dictatorship, its one of those "good" dictatorships, which only tortures and kills unsavory elements..

.. looked kind of Pakistani
looked kinda light skinned to me, maybe it was the lighting of the photo on BBC

..He wouldn't stop. The only people who don't stop are human bombs. Or people who have better things to do than think of public safety.
so when authority says stop, you obey, be you on the street, or say, a tugboat..

..they also want certain people arrested regardless of whether there has been a crime or not - from 6000 miles and an ocean away
the US arrests criminals and those they BELIEVE to be the world over, all countries do, why cant brasil?

All the while NOT LIFTING A FINGER TO FIGHT THE WORLD TERROR WAR against Islamofascist animals. Not doing a damn thing except obstructing
again, NOT TRUE.. sao paulo has a huge muslim/arab community, and the believe me, they are under the watch of the authorities, they have so much as said they will not allow extreme elements to turn sao paulo into london or new york.. brasilian law is very lax for wiretaps, and the cops already dismantled one small cell of arms smugglers close to the paraguay border.. it may not have been reported here, but it made the news in brasil and BBC brasil.. perhaps if you expand your sources of news and learn a few more languages, you can see these reports for yourself..

And in their minds, they all have an absolute inalienable right to be an illegal alien in England and act furtive, as is natural for someone breaking the law, any time they please.
well, the cubans are lucky, they have the free pass to immigration, but look down on the rest of the world that does not have it so easy, its like if as cubans you have inalienable right to be considered better than the rest of the world.. and yes, if you break the law, you should suffer the consequences, be it an illegal and unauthorized protest, or trying to overthrow and undermine the government.. and to be clear, im being a smart ass there, but it just boggles the mind, your all for law and order and heavy handedness, but when the castro government does it, then its all wrong.. im not defending it, im playing devils advocate.. if the british government can defend themselves in that manner, what is so bad about castro and his thugs using the same tactics?? again, my point is, when castro users similar tactics they are denounced for what they are, but when its the other way around well alls fair in love and war!?!?

oops, not vals rant, moros rant, my apologies..

How can you equate Great Britain protecting itself from terrorism with Castro and others generating terrorism. Those on a tugboat are fleeing for their lives. Terrorists are trying to take innocent lives. Do not use the weak excuse of the "devil's advocate". If a fellow Cuban runs through a restricted area in America and is told to stop by the police and he is here legally or not his fate is in "his" hands. We are talking about facts here not a leftist emotional illusion.
As for "lucky" Cubans. Go scuba diving between Cuba and the US and if there are any remains left that the sharks did not eat tell me they were lucky. Go to Cuba with a shovel and tell me those who were executed were "lucky". Brazil is that great moral judge who has those millions of street kids. I'll leave someone better than Brazil or you to be the moral compass.

Daniel: castro's not fighting a terror war. England is. As for not lifting a finger, why don't you look beyond the tight little borders of Brazil and into the worldwide terror war. Every nation watches its islamofascists. What Brazil DOESN'T LIFT A FINGER TO DO is fight for freedom in Iraq. As brave and fearless El Salvador does.

And your comparison of Cubans and Brazilians is really obnoxious. The tugboat comparison is OBSCENE. Cubans are fleeing bonafide communism. BONA FIDE!

Brazilians are fleeing the results of their own elections. THEIR OWN DAMN VOTES! Elect a leftist, don't come whining to me if you can't get a job. That's what leftwingery does - it kills jobs. Elect a free marketer and have all the jobs you like. But for Braziliansm the LAST thing they trust is the people! Brazil has nothing to be proud of in its self-centered and childish insistence on the right to be an illegal alien in a nation in the throes of a terror war and ignore all police orders to stop. To heck with that.

Brazil under Lula is a bigtime booster of fidel castro. The hugfests between Lula and castro rival those of castro and his Houseboy in Havana. Lula refuses to renounce the bloodstained murderer in Havana. For him, murder's ok if castro does it. He has not once - not once - stood up for what's right. And that goes for his coddling of Hugo Chavez too - the talk is that Chavez paid his people $20 million to keep them docile. They have lived up to their end of the bargain - while Chavez menaces the hemisphere. Where is the leadership???????

well, the cubans are lucky, they have the free pass to immigration, but look down on the rest of the world that does not have it so easy, its like if as cubans you have inalienable right to be considered better than the rest of the world.

Brazil's a nice place - lots of land, resources galore, beautiful talented industrious people, WHY SHOULD ANY BRAZILAN NEED TO EMIGRATE? Brazil needs to take a good long look at itself and ask itself why anyone should have to leave all that just to get a job. Why can't they get jobs in Brazil? Maybe socialist government piled up upon socialist government and all the massive bureaucracy it creates, chasing out the private sector, has something to do it. All Brazilians do is elect different flavors of leftists. Then they don't like living with the results.

i made the comparison to show how ridiculous a stance can be.. to defend the shooting by saying "he violated orders to stop' can be spun to defend castro and any horrible act he does.. protestors beaten in the street? well, they endangered public safety.. dissidents arrested? well, they endangered the rule of law.. it can be used to defend anything.. you want to defend police orders fine, but remember i can just as easily say, the cuban police want their orders respected as well.. does that make what they do right?? of course not..

You are equivocating, Daniel, a typical sophism. castro is not fighting a terror war nor under attack. In fact, JFK gave him a free pass to be dictator for life, invasion-free from the US. Britain has no such protection from islamofascists. Let me fill you in on one important thing: They Are Trying To Kill Us. Brazil needs to show some understanding. I understand their frustration - their own cops shoot them all the time with impunity so they go to England thinking all is free. Well, cops make mistakes in wartime. This was a wartime mistake. But during wartime, you cannot act like it is peacetime. You have to stop when the cops ask you to stop. Terrorists are trying to kill us.

It's not a matter of wanting their orders respected in England. You are right that it is in Cuba. But not England. They need to protect 7 million subway passengers. You really think the English cops were power-trippin' like cops do in Brazil or Cuba or even the US during peacetime? You are saying: Oh gee, those cops should have let a guy in a giant coat in 80-degree weather with wires hanging out coming out of a suicide bombers building - a guy who won't stop - be free to get on that subway and kill another 100 people or so? To protect his civil rights, you see. To let him kill as many Brits as his Madrassa tells him? After all, it would be indecorous to try to stop him with all your might. Better to fill out a report in triplicate first. Even though he may have a bomb belt under his giant coat? Oh the report in triplicate is more important! You really think that? You think it's ok?

Maybe socialist government piled up upon socialist government

this is the first socialist government in a while,
FHC was anything BUT socialist, itmar franco was an interim who replaced FCM when he was removed from office and was free market freindly like his predecesor, left basically impotent because of the scandal/mess color de mello left, FCM was a free market pro-business guy, his family is one of the richest in brasil, one of the early media bigwigs alongside roberto marinho in the country, and his government was rife with scandal and even his brothers murder, with a few other(murders), jose sarney became president after tancredo neves, the first democratically elected president after a RIGHTIST dictatorship died before the inaguration, from PMDB the 'brasilian democratic party' which was a business friendly government as well, but had to stray very far from the type of leadership the country had seen for 21 years prior.. before that, there was the dictatorship from 64-85.. feel free to show me the leftists in the last 40 years aside from lula..

So whats your point, then, daniel?

Wrong, Daniel - Cardoso was a socialist. He was from an old discredited party. He may have called his mess (come on, the IMF is socialist to the hilt) free market but he sure wasn't. They were ALL SOCIALISTS. That's why Lula won - he was a DIFFERENT socialist. When all you have to choose from are socialists, you rotate them. Why not get a true free marketer (known as Liberal in Latam) instead?

And the IMF that Brazil took the bailout from (instead of lay off bureaucrats) was run by a guy named Camdessus who was an AUTHENTIC FRENCH SOCIALIST, one of the worst kind!

Those old supposedly rightist dictators of the 1960s were fascists. Like Mussolini. Mussolini was an ally of Hitler who was a National SOCIALIST. Every last one of these people are leftists of some stripe! Brazil needs free markets or they will always be somebody's illegal alien.

val
whats my point where? on what? my list of presidents in brasil? there my point is mora claimed "leftist upon leftist" and i pointed out it was not the case

MORA
cardoso socialist?? not at all, he was very centerist, many EXPECTED him to be on the left, but he governed very middle of the road, and i say this from first hand experience there, he lost and lula won BECAUSE he was NOT socialist.. the left was not happy with him, and the center was looking for a change and improvement from varios BUSINESS changes that did not produce expected results.. and if YOU want to classify him as leftist, it still does not make a case for "leftist upon leftist" government as you stated.. as for the dictatorship, you forgot everyones FAVORITE dictator from the facist guard, franco, who was VERY chummy with mussolini and hitler, which has many fans (franco) on this blog, as has been stated in the past, so i dont know if you want to equate that as a bad thing..
you wanna talk brasilian politics be my guest i spent 6 years there and now spend 6-9 months out of the year there so go right ahead

Guys like Franco were ultimately socialist because they crushed the free market. Any statism is. The best thing is to minimize the state. That's Liberalism. As for Cardoso you are wrong. He was a socialist - all socialists are known by their work and this guy CLAIMED he was a centrist (and compared to what was out there I suppose he was but realistically, he'd be a Ted-Kennedyite here) to please the Davos crowd but given that he gave Brazil 1. Sky high interest rates. 2. IMF bailout out the wazoo (to pay for all the government bureaucrats he refused to lay off) 3. ruined currency, a socialist hallmark 4. widening of state reach, plus no property rights advances - the guy was a socialist. He just didn't look like one given what was out there. Show me the Brazilian Reagan. Let's face it, there isn't one.

Cardoso was pretty much another Jimmah Cotta, who, himself was a socialist. A bigtime failure too.

um, the currecy was ruined well before that, just about when FCM froze the savings accounts, and he WAS, NO DOUBT, NO IFS AND OR BUTS on the right, very very very cozy with the big business machine.. i never said there was a "brasilian" reagen, so i dont know where that comes from.. you may say cardoso is socialist, but it seems that you use it as A) a 'bad' word or a 'bad' thing to be, and B) anyone who isnt to the right of john birch to you is a socialist.. since everything on this blog seems to revolve around castro, cardoso DID NOT have a 'cozy' relationship with cuba or fidel, it wasnt 'cold', it wasnt 'cordial', it was just there.. i know that an indifference (to most on the board) amounts to being an accomplice, but to say cardoso was friendly would be a lie.. IF cardoso was such a socialist, he would have had a "more successful" tenure.. the fact is the people, right or wrong, for better or worse were LOOKING for a socialist, they didnt find it in cardoso or his party, and turned to lula.. and some interesting tidbits.. the town i happen to live in in brasil (garanhuns) is the very same town lula is from.. today it is known as caetes, but AT THE TIME lula was born, caetes was part of the town called garanhuns.. lula has run for prez since about the dawn of time.. he of course had large support in a small town in the interior of the northeast where the majority of the people make the minimum wage, and where most, like lula, eventually leave the northeast for the "dream" of landing a job in sao paulo, minas gerais, porto allegre or another of the larger cities in the south/south east.. when he won the election, many thought things would change, and i remember a steel worker in town hung a huge sign saying more or less "lula a fellow steel worker congratulates you, and hopes you keep your promises".. for the last year and a half, he has flown a sign saying 9it was there as of last week when i got back) "lula have you forgotten your roots, have you abandonded your people". and he isnt the only one with that sentiment.. dont think that the brasilian people are in ful agreement with him.. they have realized the one truth in brasil that ALL politics is the same, corrupt, theiving bunch, be they from the right or the left..

BTW, in regards the case of the brasilian who overstayed his visa, which is illegal, any word on the ILLEGAL passport posadaq carilles used? should this ILLEGAL act be punished? will it even be addressed here? WHAT IF posada had been shot on the border by the minutemen or some other group guarding the border? i mean, we are at war right, and he could just as well been some crazy arab right? funny how thaT "illegal" act hasnt gotten any commentary here.. you have no problem calling that guy illegal, what about posada who entered ILLEGALY and used an ILLEGAL passport? why the silence? where oh where is the justice?

Oh for crying out loud, Daniel, GIVE IT A FUCKING REST MAN. Stop being such a whiny little bitch, dude. Man, are you high maintenance or what?

As a rule, as any internet political discussion gets longer, the probability geometrically increases of said discussion ultimately devolving to "do fascists belong on the left or the right?" Fascism as devised by Mussolini--who, it should be remembered, was a former official of the Italian Socialist Party--was a Marxist heresy: coopt the wealthy and the middle classes through nationalism rather than having to smash (all of) them in violent revolutionary class war. That it maintained the facade of private property helped in this, too, but that's exactly what it was: individuals and private property existed only insofar as they served the state without question.

Fascism is a breed of socialism. It is not on the right or of the right, but was successfully painted as such by the Communists in the 1930's because heretics/apostates are always more threatening to a zealot than are mere infidels. It is not "extreme conservatism": it was a revolutionary movement seeking to either subvert every institution it could and destroy those it couldn't, so what exactly did it ever propose to conserve?

To say fascism was (or is) right-wing because it was nationalist is to betray an ignorance of the history of nationalism, or a simplistic disregard for it. Modern European nationalism sprang from the French Revolution, and for most of the 19th century it was the "progressive" idea pitted against conservative transnational dynastic monarchies like the Hapsburgs. Was the nationalist fervor that broke out violently all over the Continent in 1848, the "Springtime of the Peoples" right-wing because it was nationalist? But its goal was to radically reshape or oust the old order. Nationalism only became acceptable on the right thanks to Bismarck, who cynically coopted German nationalism in order to be able to restrain and control it--and expand the power of Prussia at the expense of the other German states--not because he seriously believed in it himself.

Exquisitely stated, Dave!

I only wish the bullets had gone to an islamofascist.

Hi.

I am a brazilian living in NY for the last 4 years... waiting for my green card as it is.

I couldn't help but notice this forum and I felt compelled to post here.

I can't keep thinking if the same thing happened to me here in NY... How would that be? Lets say I am leaving my house (and lets say its under surveilance) but I have nothing to do with it. I rent and how can I know if one of the neighbours is islamofascist or not?

So I leave my house (in brooklyn) and walk to the subway... I have a metrocard that lasts the whole year. So even though jumping turnstiles is illegal here I know for a fact that if I try to use my metrocard and doesn't work and I try to jump the turnstile to get the train and a police officer stops me I wouldn't go to jail because I am not going in without paying, its paid already... its understandable if that happened. So lets say my train is about to leave, I jump the darn turnstile (because my metrocard didn't work) and while I run to the train some people shout in english "stop or I will shoot". They saying the word "police or not" would not matter. I would turn (while still running) and look at them. Lets say they are not wearing police uniforms and that the train is right there... I would feel tempted to at least ponder my possibilities:

1 - It could be the police
2 - It could be thugs
3 - I could make it to the train and escape
4 - I could stop and take my chances

Well... difficult to know what I would do... its like saying if you were stuck in the WTC North Tower, fire all over you would die burning and would not commit suicide and jump from the Tower. I am afraid of heights so I can't see myself jumping but then its pretty hot, can't breath... what do I do?

Tell the truth, I don't think anyone can say what my poor dead countryman did was wrong or idiotic... Who here knows exactly how you will react when you see guns and adrenaline kicks in? Your brain shuts down... you act by instinct and instinct in some cases helps, in others gets you killed.

Yes it is a big and beautiful country. Yes it is corrupt. You're saying we leave Brazil because we elected those corrupts and now we are running away from that? I tell you, there just like here they elect who they want. Wasn't it in here that Bush lost in popular votes but was still elected (so I guess your system allows for that) but even in that case, the majority of people didn't want him and he was still elected.

Which I like... I consider myself Republican and I like President Bush. But the fact remains that the countries are really not that different...

In any case, people in Brazil are afraid also, they are shocked by the fact that someone could just die in such a horrible accident like that... No one in Brazil did all that "protesting" when some brazilians died in the WTC... I don't understand why. I think what happens is that at the WTC it was easy to understand, they were murdered by islamofascists... here he was murdered (accidentaly) by the police.

I completely understand that shooting at the head because of explosives, wearing a parka in a hot day, jumping turnstiles and running from the police, coming out from a building the police was watching... it doesn't help his case. But I feel sad that no one here seems to understand that the guys family just lost a brother/cousin/son...

And so did 50+ people in England.

So why keep trying to understand if Brazil is right or wrong when protesting, or England is right in the "shoot-to-kill" policy... I believe that it was a mistake and more mistakes will happen, but logically speaking its better to make a mistake and kill "1" person than to not make that mistake or act too slow and "50+" people die.

I also believe that innocent people should not die if they run because they get scared or are afraid of people holding guns or whatever reason...

Truth is... why can't we just get rid of all those islamofascists? They are causing all this... Yes Brazil is like a spoiled girlfriend they whine and complain but I guess its a cultural thing... Don't Italians think they are sex machines and French that their cuisine is the best in the whole world?

See, you all keep trying to say: "Brazil is right, Brazil is wrong, Fuck Brazil, etc" when who cares about Brazil especially here in the states? I think that's actually what the Terrorists want to do to have every country blaming/fighting each other... every country closing itself in fear and saying "fuck the other countries and their people".

I tell you this... Fear truly is the path to the dark side. The more we fear the more we become xenophobic and start to act as terrorists ourselves... the moment we don't show compassion for a slain innocent is the moment Terrorists win.

Can we go shoot terrorists now?