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So what you are saying is that Muslims should not be allowed US citizenship. Am I the only one here who thinks that sounds... crazy? Especially since there haven't yet been any US citizen Muslim terrorists of any note.

One could easily argue that the US and it's model of freedom and capitalism has, as usual, done a much better job of assimilating its Muslim immigrants than Europe, and actually discouraged extremism.

But this writer is recommending draconian measures to fix a problem that isn't there, measures that, in the process, will probably turn otherwise normal, assimilated American Muslims into extremists.

Great idea, and good luck amending the Constitution to remove freedom of religion. William Penn is rolling over in his grave.

I think "xenophobic hysteria" was the exact phrase and it definitely applies.

I have to admit, this does sound a little over the top.

But to be honest, I dont see the likes of CAIR putting forth as much effort to criticize the extremists factions as they do in supporting certain members against the government. And Ive yet to hear that much hootin and hollering from the "moderates" vis-a-vis extremism. One or two voices of sanity out of millions and millions aint gonna cut it.

What Mr. Trifkovic says in the interview goes to the heart of what Muslims -- Muslims who take their faith seriously -- believe. Our founding fathers separated "religion" and "state" precisely because of religions like Islam, where "state" and "faith" and "law" are one and the same, and where power resides, not in the people, but in a "theopoly," so to speak.

When I took the citizenship oath quoted in the article (and there are many native-born Americans out there who have never had to do so) I took it seriously -- deathly seriously. I am able to separate my faith and the state. The question is whether Muslims can, and remain devout Muslims. My answer, like Mr. Trifkovic's, is "no." In order to be a citizen of this country you have to renounce any creed that calls for its destruction; Islam is such a creed. It's not that we are the only ones in danger, it's all of us in the West. Our pluralism and democracy -- two tenets that are incompatible with Islam -- are the enemies.

I would defy anybody to read everything I have read about what goes on in Mosques in this country -- the hateful, anti-American, traitorous, seditious speech -- and come away thinking it's OK because of freedom of religion. Even that has its limits. (see Reynolds v. United States, 1879 for the landmark ruling on these issues.)

I await your rebuttals...

Haha, George said "butt"!

I respect George, even if I don't always agree with him (hey, as a SciFi, Fantasy, and Gaming fan, I gotta say that anyone who likes SF&Fantasy can't be all bad, right?:) ), but I have to say it....taking the word of someone like Srdjan "Serge" Trifkovic on Islam, or Balkan ethnicities and politics is like taking the word of Jack T. Chick on Roman Catholicism.

Trifkovic is a Serbian National(social)ist who has defended Milosevic (Sodomy's, er Saddam's buddy, and also well-spoken of by the Bearded Bastard as well), Karadzic, Mladic, Seslj, and other supposed "defenders of Christendom" (if they're "defenders of Christendom", then I'm a Wiccan-which I'm most assuredly not!) in the court of public opinion many times over the years. He is noted not merely for his hatred of Islam and Muslims, but also Croats, Bosnians, and especially Albanians (regardless of their religion-a typical hallmark of Serbian National(social)ism) If anyone is interested and open to reading it, here a link to a FrontPageMag article that is both critical of Al-Quaeda fronts like CAIR *and also* of Trifkovic. http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5517

you're just repeating the same thing you said in the post, which is that a group of people should not be allowed citizenship in this country because of their religion. right?

until you prove to me that Islam in the United States - in the United States - as a religion, as a whole religion, is a threat to that country's citizens, I will continue to hold the position that you are denying the very foundation of this democracy, part of which is freedom of religion. if you want to change that foundation, if you're honestly suggesting that it be changed, I believe that maybe you didn't study hard enough when you were preparing to become an American citizen.

now, as for the idea that "real" Islam, in its core, calls for its members to rise up against the United States specifically, my response is, even if it does, so what? has that happened? do you see jihad in deerborn, MI? I don't. why is that? well, let's think about it.

catholicism calls for a complete ban on contraception. now, raise your hand if you're "catholic" and ever worn a rubber. that's what I thought. and many of those catholics who raise their hands will say, "that's pre-vatican II theology" or something similar, just like many muslims will tell you that they think sharia law is either crazy or wildly misinterpreted. American Muslims ESPECIALLY are living in freedom, and my guess is they probably like it, so why screw that up?

now, I agree with Val that Muslims are too quiet when other Muslims commit violence, and that's one of my main beefs with it right now. but suggesting as you have that all muslims should be banned from the American experience is way, way off the reservation. I fully, 100-percent support hateful speech, hateful thoughts, and all the rest, because that is part of free speech and free thought, and you can't pick and choose what speech/thought you want to be free. where that hate crosses the line into action, we have laws to deal with it, and justice is done (and this is, by the way, the same argument that most conservatives, including me, use against the idea of "hate crime").

so, to sum up, unless you can show me that there is, at this moment, some sort of real conspiracy among all American Muslims that threatens my well-being as an American citizen, I maintain my position that this sounds crazy.

Arguing for the repression of a religion on an anti-castro blog is just a bit hypocritical. We conservatives claim we are principled. Let's show it.

I just realized I've become That Guy Who Always Posts Really Long Comments That Nobody Will Read. damn. sorry.

I am not calling for a ban on the religion, quite the contrary. America is founded, as you state, on tolerance for all religions. What I am calling for is two-fold: (1) for the arrest and prosecution of those within a religion who use it for a seditious political purpose, and (2) for those who use it to commit illegal acts (whatever they may be). I want the abortion clinic bomber to be convicted and sentenced even though my personal belief is that abortion is murder. Not to mention the white supermacists who twist the message in the New Testament for their anti-Semitic, Nazi philosophy. That is the distinction I am talking about.

The "blind sheik" was preaching this kind of crap before the first WTC bombing, making lots of converts here in the US. Many were convicted, but there are still others who weren't caught.

I found Mr. Trifkovic's first book very enlightening and not at all out of the mainstream of other books I have read that are critical of Islam. So, OK, for the sake of argument, take his book out since in your view the "man" influences the "message." Now replace that book with other books written by (Muslim) Stephan Schwartz, (ex-Muslim) Ibn Warraq, Bernard Lewis, David Pryce-Jones, Robert Spencer, or Steve Emerson, etc. and you get the same message. And they are not Serbian nationalists. Is their message wrong as well?

No hay peor ciego que aquel que no quiere ver.

I just realized I've become That Guy Who Always Posts Really Long Comments That Nobody Will Read. damn. sorry.

Sorry, but that was me first! LOL!

george, I think we already have laws that cover your concerns. but what you're really saying - and here I definitely agree with you - is that those laws should be enforced on muslims the same as anyone else, and that muslims shouldn't be tip-toed around because they're the liberal cause celebre of the moment.

and fo' sho', let's let the serbian racists sit this one out...

I'm with you on this one George. The evidence is all over the place. In our schools, in their Mosques, etc, etc, etc. Until I see a MASSIVE movement of the so-called "moderate" members of Islam calling for a reformation, their religion is incompatible with the American constitution. They have a well-known agenda of taking over the country by birth rate, non-integration and elections.
Rent the film “Jihad in America”. Don't think it can't happen here, it already is in Europe.
I'm with you on this one George. The evidence is all over the place. In our schools, in their Mosques, etc, etc, etc. Until I see a MASSIVE movement of the so-called "moderate" members of Islam calling for a reformation, their religion is incompatible with the American constitution. They have a well-known agenda of taking over the country by birth rate, non-integration and elections.
Rent the film “Jihad in America”. Don't think it can't happen here, it already is in Europe.

http://blogforcuba.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/02/holy_war.html

Good grief, somehow I double posted that, sorry.

Hi George,

OK, I understand where you're coming from since you clarified what you meant, and I thank you for doing so. To be honest though, I do have to say that wasn't the impression your original post gave me (and evidently I wasn't alone in this). That being said, I do agree with you, and you know what's the funny thing? Every single Muslim I know personally would too.

I know of more than one of my friends in the Albanian commmunity (most of whom are nominally Muslim, thanks to 500 years of slavery under the Ottoman empire) who has been approached by a Pakistani or Middle Eastern Muslim who moved into town, and decided to introduce themselves, talking all sorts of trash about America and Americans, and all the while assuming that they would be offered the "hand of brotherhood" by a fellow Muslim. Boy, were they in for a rude awakening! They were told handily to "shove it", and that they could take their anti-american rhetoric elsewhere!

Re: The authors you mentioned. Heh....it's kind of ironic you mentioned Stephen Schwartz, since the link I posted was to an article by him! :) Schwartz I think is a very good example that Islam is by no means a "monolithic" religion (he's a sufi, the mystical branch, which is considered heretical by many Sunnis and even Shiites). And as a Muslim, he obviously is not critical of *all* forms of the faith, but rather those that he sees as corruptions (esp. Wahabism). I do like Schwartz, and wish there were more voices like him, or Abdul Hadi Palazzi.

Ibn Warraq I have read a bit by. IIRC, he's now a secular humanist, and his view of Islam from what I can tell by the little I've read seems to be what I would expect from one who has abandoned religion for that philosophy. Spencer I have problems with because he has evidently accepted the "funadamentalism/Wahabism as default setting" attitude, ignoring the fact that Islam is no more a monolith than Christianity or Judaism, and hasn't been for a long time. The others I'm not familiar with, but would be willing to check them out.

But to get back to Trifkovic, I've run into his opinions a *lot* on the 'net; it says something to me when someone like him is cited not merely by those on the right, but even by sites like the rabidly anti-croat, anti-bosnian, anti-albanian, anti-islam, ardently *left wing* emperors-clothes.com in order to justify *their* position. But I still stand by what I said before-I earnestly believe that at least a significant part of his positions are influenced by his being a Serb National(social)ist.
I guess the last thing I want to say is that even though this is a pretty passionate subject, I'm glad we can discuss it in a reasonable fashion. :)

Peshkatari, thanks for your commentary. This is the kind of reasoned, yet passionate, debate I love to see here at Babalu.

Frankly, I was unaware of Trifkovic's alledged political alliances until you mentioned it in your comment. I read Sword of the Prophet and found it no less informative than others I have read. The Serbs do have a long and bloody history with its neighbors -- Islamic or otherwise -- and they do tend to hold grudges for a long, long time.

Are there any books you recommend I should read?

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